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MartLgn

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 07:27 AM

A pie shop in my town has recently closed citing the unbearable cost of meeting the EU Food Hygiene regulations (2006), in addition to the costs of hygiene training for staff and implementing HACCP the regulations require regular micro analysis of the ingredients used in the pies, the owner estimated the annual cost of this to be £10,000. The business was established 80 years ago and had been in the same family ever since, they did a roaring trade amongst the local business parks and offices and made a top notch pie.

There were no known outbreaks of food poisoning or food borne illness attributed to the shop, the owner claims that the last environmental health inspection was satisfactory so can the product have been any safer this year after the regulations came into force than it was for the preceeding decades ?

Is this new regulation another case of EU harmonisation gone too far, could it be the death knell for the little guy with his sandwich shop unable to bear the cost whilst the big chains can set up corporate training sessions and central technical axpertise ?


Why put off until tomorrow that which you can avoid doing altogether ?

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 08:33 AM

This type of problem is already reflected under most international food trade environment where even the "big boys" are complaining of having to comply with far too many specific customer or regulatory requirements i.e. such as meeting various food safety audit standards

Therefore, many organizations around the world have either ceased business or dropped out of the international arena all together. If you are managing a business of certain size and require export revenue to stay afloat and your business is mostly confined to just your local market, its only a matter of time.

Coming back to the real issue of the pie shop, I am very pretty sure that the pies are kept in a hot display shelf or served hot and that the food is safe which makes it no difference from those sold in a fast food chain operations such as St---bucks if any body think these are any safer.

My conclusion is that the fittest will survive and this is how the game of food safety is played out (IMO from a business viewpoint). Am i glad that ISO 22000 is given the opportunity to become a truly singular harmonized global FSMS Auditable Standard (at least a chance to reduce compliance costs)

I also hope that local regulators would take care of food operators / processors of all sizes and certainly, size is NOT a benchmark of absolute food safety at all.


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Charles Chew
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Charles.C

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 10:09 AM

Dear MartLgn,

This is a deceptively simple question so it's easy to stray off topic. The vanishing mom@pop facility is a global reality I guess but whether the new EU regulations are solely driving a significantly new nail into the business I would like to see more evidence. Or is it just an inevitable knock-on of the ever-increasing unacceptability / cost of making an error of any magnitude ? Wayne would probably blame it on 'zero tolerance'.
Not being in the locale I am not aware if this is simply just one more of many similar well-known tales of pie-type woe in the UK ? Accordingly I am slightly cautious to simply go with the cost factor on its own. Sorry to not be familiar with previous expectations but were things like HACCP already a running requirement (I thought yes), or is there some obvious new technical demand which is pushing things over the edge (like requiring a qualified pharmacist in a medicine shop)?.
The regulatory introduction of HACCP into the seafood area many years ago caused an initial near revolt and certainly has had cost / auditing implications but the evidence that it has proved to achieve safer food is I think still under discussion (the problem is the quantifying as usual). I certainly agree that many technologies now being used are financially out or range of smaller operations (not just pie shops) but this is a long ongoing phenomenon in the incidental (?) business of people covering their backs.
The query in MartLgn's post might need to be recast into 'how much potential for the pie shop to incur a problem exists? And allied to this 'how much risk is (cost?) acceptable', many years of success is certainly a component of the evaluation but not the only one.

I am not sure if CharlesChew is being optimistic or simply opportunistic, eg I22k has the possibility to be a 'killer app' successor to I9k and everybody knows what that means. I accept that some form of commercialisation is inevitable as has now occurred in HACCP but at least the HACCP language style is mostly non-Shakespearean. (actually, based on a recent thread CharlesChew seems to be an unusually sincere auditor so perhaps I22k has some mysterious pre-selective abiity in its willingness to be availed of).

Rgds / Charles.C


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Charles.C


Simon

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 09:57 AM

A pie shop in my town has recently closed…

My deepest condolences Martin. :crying:

In response to your question as to whether the pies were safer 'pre' or 'post' regulations; it's not really answerable without more information and having had the opportunity of carrying out an inspection before and after. Being a patron you may have a better clue.

You can get an idea from the quality of the food, the appearance and cleanliness of the staff and premises, but who knows what lurks in the pantry? :unsure:

Food safety is always more difficult for the little guy, but it's no less important. Outbreaks of food poisoning and food borne illness caused by pie shops are a reality and the regulators had to do something. I don't envy their job in attempting to raise standards to protect the public - it's a huge task.

HACCP has stood the test of time and if your pie shop didn't have HACCP in place or even basic hygiene training for staff (really???) then I wouldn't want a pie from them tasty or not.

I agree with Charles C

Not being in the locale I am not aware if this is simply just one more of many similar well-known tales of pie-type woe in the UK? Accordingly I am slightly cautious to simply go with the cost factor on its own.

I doubt the new regulations and resulting cost were the sole reason for this business closing. £10,000 annually? It seems a bit excessive for keeping a pie shop up to speed (maybe I should get into this food safety business).

At the end of the day they could have put up the price of their pies, told the customers why, and let the safety and quality speak for themselves.

However, I do join you in mourning the closing of this pie shop, indeed any pie shop. :crybaby:

Regards,
Simon

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Charles.C

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 11:28 AM

Dear MartLgn,

Having replied to yr post, I realise I don't exactly know what a pie shop is !?
I have a feeling this tradition has long gone in the non -Lancashire downwards environment. (Visions of Prithee wife, get thou to the XX pie shop ??). Is it limited to certain types of ingredient or can be any old scrap which will go under a pie crust ?

Rgs / Charles.C

added - maybe "thou" shd be "tha" ?


Edited by Charles.C, 21 September 2006 - 11:30 AM.

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MartLgn

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 12:51 PM

Dear MartLgn,

Having replied to yr post, I realise I don't exactly know what a pie shop is !?
I have a feeling this tradition has long gone in the non -Lancashire downwards environment. (Visions of Prithee wife, get thou to the XX pie shop ??). Is it limited to certain types of ingredient or can be any old scrap which will go under a pie crust ?

Rgs / Charles.C

added - maybe "thou" shd be "tha" ?


Keep practising the Lancashire dialect Charles, its coming along a treat, although the mention of a pie shop in Lancashire conjours up images of mill workers in clogs the one which I refered to in my original post was in shiny premises only a few years old. Theres not many shops around selling just pies anymore as they tend to be bakers or sandwhich shops, however the shop in question made and sold only pies with such wholesome fillings as meat and potato, steak and kidney, cheese and onion, chicken and veg (my personal favourite) all the North of England standards really plus the now essential chicken tikka pasty.

Its far from a Northern thing though, those crazy southerners have shops selling Pie AND mash, whoever heard of anything so ridicuous ? :dunno:

Why put off until tomorrow that which you can avoid doing altogether ?

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 01:31 PM

Dear Martin,

Now I really understand your withdrawal symptoms. I've quite lost my appetite, one needs these 'roots' in this changing world.
:off_topic: Wonder if Holcombe Brooke has a pie shop ? Somehow I doubt it though I note that Ramsbottom has a Chinese restaurant. It's not the same though. :smile:

Rgds / Charles.C


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Simon

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 02:27 PM

:off_topic: Wonder if Holcombe Brooke has a pie shop ? Somehow I doubt it though


Is anything 'on topic' today. :biggrin:

You're right there isn't a pie shop in Holcombe Brook, perish the thought. However, there is a bakery that sells delicious and wholesome home made 'puff pastry' filled pockets. :thumbup:

Simon

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MartLgn

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 07:39 AM

HACCP has stood the test of time and if your pie shop didn't have HACCP in place or even basic hygiene training for staff (really???) then I wouldn't want a pie from them tasty or not.


I think that the shop would have to had HACCP in place and certainly hygiene training for the staff as a manufacturer of food for sale to the public, I think the part of the new regulations which is causing the trouble is the requirement to have regular micro analysis carried out on the ingredients, this is what the owner claims would cost him £10,000 a year to implement, whilst HACCP and hygiene training are entirely reasonable and the benefits apparent to the owner of a food business the concept of micro testing may be totally off the scope for somebody who has spent the last 25 years baking pies and making sure his premises and staff are up to standard. If somebody buys a pie from a shop and suffers food poisoning as a result they may not report the incident but they will definitely not go back there and will tell their family , friends and colleagues not to either.

Why put off until tomorrow that which you can avoid doing altogether ?

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 07:57 AM

Dear MartLgn,

Interesting comments, Martin.
If true it all depends how many samples / time, how often and analyse for what? (still too lazy to open the regs, Salmonella, E.coli O157 ….). Haven't seen analysis charges for a long time but my guess BP20 max per Salmonella, E.coli O157 bit more maybe, plate counts etc a lot less (just speculating, say BP75 / sample), 3 random samples / month . Where does one get the BP10,000 I wonder? Or is he obliged to cover all types of inputs / every type of finished pie? - that might do it.
Or maybe the cost of getting someone there is the problem like the RAC (are you allowed to deliver yourself?)

Rgds / Charles.C

added - or maybe the factor is the cost of the "lost to sampling pies"? :smile:


Edited by Charles.C, 22 September 2006 - 08:14 AM.

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Simon

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 08:35 AM

If you look at the number of food poisoning outbreaks on the news forum I think we'd all agree there is still room for improvement. Am I reading it right by saying most outbreaks are attributed to food service rather than food manufacturing? It would make sense as there are more of them with less resource to dedicate to food safety.

In UK was the (annual??) visit by the EHO adequate? Or have things started to improve since the introduction of the new regulations?

If they have then for the greater good maybe the odd pie shop must suffer. It's not fair, but stuff happens.

Simon


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Posted 22 September 2006 - 09:44 AM

Dear Simon,

In Australia, New Zealand, the United States and the United Kingdom, around 60 per cent to 80 per cent of foodborne illness arises from the food service sector (Crerar et al 1996; Auckland Healthcare 1998; Bryan 1980; Cowden at al 1995; Todd 1985).


http://66.102.7.104/...Z...=clnk&cd=14

Not 100% sure of the definition of 'arises', eg whether totally proven to be due to a specific error in the fs establishment but I guess probably yes (I suppose this has to include things like, perhaps unknowingly, receiving faulty raw materials which may be unrescuable, eg raw oysters .)

This is a slightly old link but illustrates the types of problem involved -
http://www.cspinet.o...ts/dineat2.html


Rgds / Charles.C


Edited by Charles.C, 22 September 2006 - 10:10 AM.

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 12:08 PM

Well boys, i make a damn good pie and i have no intention of implementing HACCP in MY kitchen!!!! ;)



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Posted 22 September 2006 - 12:44 PM

Dear Cazyncymru,

Bravo !
I think it was Napoleon Bonaparte at Waterloo who said 'Nothing Venture, Nothing Gain' .
I hope that yr comment does not include pre-requisites such as handcleaning practices or perhaps you are the sole pie eater? :biggrin:
Admittedly, I do not wash my kitchen work surfaces with 100ppm of chlorine and I doubt that many other housepeople do also.

Rgds / Charles.C


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Posted 23 September 2006 - 07:24 AM

Dear Simon,

I can add a bit more detail to yr aside about distribution of incidents by posting these extracts from a rather fascinating legalistic document -


Attached File  product_liability_and_microbial_foodborne_illness__ch2.pdf   64.55KB   29 downloads

Attached File  product_liability_and_microbial_foodborne_illness__app.pdf   68.17KB   22 downloads

Rgds / Charles.C

added - if the UK situation is anything like this US document, I fear the HACCP part is going to disturb a lot of non-pie shops also.


Edited by Charles.C, 23 September 2006 - 08:03 AM.

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Charles.C


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Posted 24 September 2006 - 07:49 PM

Dear Martin,

The exact microbiological sampling requirements for the pie-shop are (would have been) seemingly dependent on the status of the (hopefully) running HACCP program however the introductory minimum in the EU 2006 regs appeared to be 1 set of 5 samples / week to be analysed for salmonella.
The minimum requirement for cattle carcasses appeared to be similar and I found this 2002 article -
'The annual cost (excluding transport) of meeting the requirements for microbiological testing of carcases and production surfaces by red meat slaughterhouses can vary considerably. Estimates range from £2,505 if a competitive rate is obtained and testing frequency can be reduced after a period of satisfactory results and maintained at the lower level, to £11,440 or more if no reduction is justified and an expensive laboratory is chosen for the work. The average of quotations provided for the Pilot Plant Study was £7500 a year….'

Ignoring the 'production surfaces' bit it looks as though your pie-shop manager may not be so far out (my own guess gave around BP5000 / year + transport + inflation ++, so maybe).
Depending on his pie volume, I can see this could seem a heck of a lot of work on his part plus perhaps the ‘fear of the unknown' possibility / consequences of a non-compliance. I guess the question then comes down to how fast / what criteria enable a reduction of the testing. Maybe he wasn't able (or didn't dare?) to find out ? It does seem sad.
This situation also seems somewhat ironic in that HACCP is supposed to enable the reduction of end-point testing. As was already noted, it is obvious the big boys are well placed on this one.
Repeated condolences at loss of pies.

Rgd / Charles.C


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Posted 24 September 2006 - 08:27 PM

I've changed my mind on this and agree all that testing is plain crazy.

Simon


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Posted 25 September 2006 - 11:05 AM

Interestingly I would like to get the permission from Martin to present this as a case study in the discussion of a HACCP Plan for an ISO 22000 Seminar in November i.e. albeit a home kitchen or a proper food process facility.

The issue of microbes is all crap. Its really all about process control and anything that goes through the oven (CCP), is just about destroyed with the exception of some heat resistant microbes which are generally not harmful.

So when pies are thoroughly baked and held in proper temperatures, where is the risk of re-contaminations. The micro tests are nothing more than just validation issues which is performed after process.

Pity the pie shop owner did not know about Saferpak before he packed it in.

Damn it, any pies coming out from an oven or held in a adequately regulated display unit is good enough for me.


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Charles Chew
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Posted 25 September 2006 - 11:40 AM

Interestingly I would like to get the permission from Martin to present this as a case study in the discussion of a HACCP Plan for an ISO 22000 Seminar in November i.e. albeit a home kitchen or a proper food process facility.


By all means Charles, I'd be happy if you did.

The issue of microbes is all crap. Its really all about process control and anything that goes through the oven (CCP), is just about destroyed with the exception of some heat resistant microbes which are generally not harmful.

So when pies are thoroughly baked and held in proper temperatures, where is the risk of re-contaminations. The micro tests are nothing more than just validation issues which is performed after process.


That was my first reaction Charles, It's hard to argue with measures designed to improve consumer safety but in cases such as these where the long established baking and display processes comprise the most appropriate controls then one would hope that common sense would prevail, it would appear that there are advisory elements within the EU that are determined to roll out every known food safety tool into every corner of the industry no matter how small.

Why put off until tomorrow that which you can avoid doing altogether ?

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 10:17 AM

Dear All,

Maybe you guys are already exhausted with this topic however being somewhat microbiologically inclined I did some more digging into what is in truth the culmination of many years of EU's considerings on this subject (you can see my micro.crit. thread upload if you are historically interested, nudge, nudge). Presumably UK readers will know this finalised 2006 rule actually goes back textually to at least 2004 (EC No. 852/2004).

Other than the EU 2006 regulation itself, one key link is -

EXPLANATORY MEMORANDUM TO THE FOOD HYGIENE (ENGLAND) REGULATIONS 2006
http://www.opsi.gov....20060014_en.pdf

This gives a (long) summary of the justifications for the changes -
Some of the stated benefit is here -

5.3 If the microbiological criteria are considered as an integral part of a HACCP based system, then it is possible to equate the benefit of the Microbiological Criteria Regulation with that of the food hygiene legislation. This work has shown that the precise effect the new proposals, including the food hygiene legislation, would have on the level of food poisoning is difficult to predict or to measure, but work carried out on behalf of the Agency provides some information. Work undertaken by a consultant economist on Indigenous Foodborne Disease (IFD) in England and Wales, found that the estimated total cost in 2000 was £1,366 million. This comprised the basic costs to the health service, loss of earnings etc. of £164 million, and costs of pain, grief and suffering of £1,202 million. When applied to the UK as a whole, these figures indicated costs of £1,534 million per year. Therefore, even a further minimal incremental reduction in the incidence of foodborne illness of between 1% and 5% would result in further benefits in the region of £15.3 million to £76.5 million per year. This work indicates that benefits are likely to build up cumulatively over a number of years as both business and enforcement authorities improve the way in which the regulations are applied and checked. Any resulting improvement in food safety management will mean that the overall food hygiene position would be improved and the incidence of disease should improve as a consequence of this. An indicative figure of 3% was included in the regulatory impact assessment 13for the purpose of the cost/benefit analysis. This figure would seem reasonable set against the confirmed reduction (in the number of laboratory-reported cases of the five foodborne disease pathogens monitored) of 15% seen in the first three years of the Agency's Foodborne Disease Strategy, (2000-2003).

Costs are given in another link -
http://www.food.gov....2004riafull.pdf

'The main costs of the new regulations will be due to the extension of the last two principles of HACCP, verification and documentation, in catering and retail industry. Currently these businesses are only required to implement the first five principles of HACCP including identifying potential hazards and measures for their control, determining critical control points (CCP), establishing critical limits for each CCP, establishing a monitoring system and establishing corrective actions when monitoring indicated any CCP is not controlled.
A commissioned study of the cost of implementing the last two principles of HACCP in the retail and catering sectors estimates that the set up costs are very small. The running costs of verification and documentation are estimated at £96 million each year. Year one costs amount to £132 million.'
(details are given and the result is 'The break-even point, when costs are equal to benefits is after about five years.')

Note - presumably "validation" is understood. ;)
This does appear to be saying that a lot of HACCP should have been in motion already across the board (as also indicated in Annex F this document), I'm not sure if this applied to the pie shop et al ?. Would have been useful to see the same detail in the costs as for the benefits. A suggestion that perhaps HACCP had not happened so uniformly in practice is in the later part of the previous link -

7.2 It is anticipated that the greatest additional costs to food businesses will be associated with the introduction and implementation of a risk based approach to food safety management, e.g. procedures based on HACCP principles or GHP as required by the EU food hygiene legislation. Many businesses are already testing products as part of current EU legislation, because of specifications from customers or as part of industry specific guidelines and standards. It is expected that the new legislation will have a greater financial burden on small and medium sized businesses that might not have an established food safety management plan. However, the Regulation is flexible in its approach in terms of the sampling and testing frequency, permitting alternative methods and means to demonstrate compliance depending upon the local risk. The introduction of the Regulation will also complement other Agency initiatives such as those designed to assist small businesses in complying with Regulation (EC) No 852/2004 through the production of Agency guidance. These initiatives have been developed to allow businesses to manage food safety and protect consumers whilst at the same time avoiding unnecessary burdens on business. Whilst assistance is planned for these businesses, there remain additional financial implications to ensure understanding and compliance.

There are comments in various positions that detailed microbiological testing may not be mandated if certain conditions are fulfilled and this is re-stated / amplified in this CFA guide -

The Micro Criteria Regulation - what does it all mean to manufacturers?
http://www.chilledfo...1055_101CMS.ppt.

However it seems possible to me that the essential 'prerequisite Principles' were perhaps not yet implemented at the pieshop (amongst others also perhaps) so there was no way out except the full system startup + micro.testing. I have some reservations that these products are as completely straightforward as we are saying in that they are RTE after all so that post-process contamination / temperature control is not inevitably non-trivial IMO (not to mention left-overs) although I think Martin did say that the visible conditions were excellent. I also do believe that such pies have a good track record.
One wonders if such small-enterprise demises will occur in significant numbers in 2006.

Rgds / Charles.C

PS the analysis cost of salmonella testing is also detailed in first link (claimed max BP10??) but I thought there was quite enough content already. :rolleyes:

added - one significant omission that I should have included is that I saw no explanation at all for the choice of level of microbiological testing, this step remains a mystery. I'm surprised nobody seems to have vocally questioned this aspect (perhaps they have but internally as in 3rd link above).
(after some further thought, the selection of pathogens as such is probably unavoidable from a legalistic point of view if one is to make a decision for specific safety reasons however the sample size / frequency remains arbitrary and, for the values used, if negative proves what ?)


Edited by Charles.C, 26 September 2006 - 05:40 PM.

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Charles.C


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Posted 26 September 2006 - 09:17 PM

Dear All,

CORRECTION :oops:

The dreaded word. I just realised that I misinterpreted the EU regs regarding 'meat' products and that their intention is to apply to raw items. Salmonella is not EU mandated for RTE foods if I read it correctly, although I guess some testing may still depend on the status of the current HACCP Plan, ie for validation / verification, no specifics as far as I can see (up to the FBO one hopes).
If I haven't made another error, the only mandated RTE requirement is L.monocytogenes, the exact analysis criterion to be determined by the product/consumer etc as per the EU regs. Looks like will need to demonstrate below 100cfu/g.
Whether this is an improved situation for the pie-shop I'm not sure. Number of samples is the same as for Salmonella assuming the 'environment' card is not exercised, frequency I presume is similar depending on the existing HACCP plan again though I don't see this laid down anywhere. Cost is probably not so different.
Maybe the pie-shop owner was even more apprehensive for L.mono. than for salmonella.
Anybody feel free to come back if you have another EU reg. interpretation ( seems like nobody's been checking up on me so far or they're ultra-polite :whistle: ). All mine and other peoples' related comments are not affected by my error unless it's easier to squirm out of L.mono. testing but somehow I doubt this (except for the 'establishment' again).

Rgds / Charles.C


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


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Posted 27 September 2006 - 09:52 AM

Dear All,

This is slightly straying off Martins's original question however I thought the topic was interesting but too localised (?) for a separate thread.

I expect that UK 'food' people will probably be better placed to correct me if I am making wrong deductions however after looking around the thread topic it seems to me that the situation for small catering businesses and the like has created a difficulty regarding the HACCP requirements of the new EU 2006 foodstuff regulations.
For the UK, this has resulted in a simplified pictorial-rich "manual" which is (I think) considered to be a sort of food safety management system in a sufficient way to meet the basic legal requirements, particularly for businesses which had not yet developed HACCP systems (many already had however these were not legally required to be totally documented [inferred from the websites below]).

The issued manual (Safer Food Better Business [SFBB]) is available here -

http://www.food.gov....b/sfbbcaterers/


Some examples of explanations for the necessity / implementation of the scheme is given in various UK websites, eg -
http://www.uttlesfor...er business.htm

http://www.reigate-b...rd_analysis.asp

http://www.onesuffol...dNewsletter.pdf.
(last one a bit slow)

I had some reservations about the HACCPness of the SFBB document (opinions?) although I liked the illustrations. The strange thing is that I didn't notice on the websites or in the SFBB any specific mentions regarding routine microbiological testing requirements. Perhaps this came later. :dunno:

Rgds / Charles.C


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


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Posted 28 September 2006 - 07:56 PM

Despite the lack of participation in this thread, take heart Charles this thread will remain a valuable reference for future members for a long time to come - bravo to you once again. :smarty:

Rearding the FSBB documents I like the simple style, straightforward language and visuals. I'm sure if the guidelines were implemented they would provide a very stable foundation (prerequisites?) to build a HACCP system upon. Maybe a gentle introduction to the wonderful world of food safety for the small food business owner

Regards,

Simon


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Posted 29 September 2006 - 09:21 AM

Despite the lack of participation in this thread, take heart Charles this thread will remain a valuable reference for future members for a long time to come - bravo to you once again. :smarty:

Regards,

Simon


Dear Charles C.,

I agree with Simon. Thank you tremendously for the input. :clap:

Cheers,




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