29 replies to this topic

[Simon]

An easy one. What is your definition of Food Safety?

Regards,
Simon

[Charles Chew]

Simon,

Would you accept this:

A process environment that produces foods that may not look so good, taste so good, smells somewhat out of this world BUT when eaten, it guarantees you out of harm's way.

Charles Chew

[Simon]

Good one Charles, it sounds a bit like my wifes cooking. I like the definition below, it's nice and simple...like me!

'The safeguarding, or protection of food from anything that could harm the consumer's health.'

Regards,
Simon

[Charles Chew]

Let me throw you a question:

What is the purpose of a product shelf life and what does it mean?
(For hints, please refer to "exhibit A") somewhere in this forum!


Charles Chew

[Simon]

What is the purpose of a product shelf life and what does it mean? (For hints, please refer to "exhibit A") somewhere in this forum!

I suppose to help the supplier with stock rotation and to aid the consumer in their pre and post purchase 'good to consume' decisions.

I don't know what it's like in the supermarkets down your way Charles but in ours the 'use by' date also provides a wonderful spectator sport. There's usually a bay in one of the aisles dedicated to almost out of date food and when it's freshly replenished, the granny scrum down is a site to behold. Invariably it ends in wheelie bag and Zimmer frame carnage - not a pretty site I can tell you!

Regards,
Simon

[Franco]

'The safeguarding, or protection of food from anything that could harm the consumer's health.'

Hi Saferpakers. Here we are, it's unsafe food

Snail into the bottle

Would you recall it from the market if you knew that at least one contamination had occurred ?

[Simon]

Would you recall it from the market if you knew that at least one contamination had occurred ?

Not sure really Franco, probably yes. Mind you in some countries the discovery of a snail in ones ginger beer would be considered a bonus.

Regards,
Simon

[Charles Chew]

Mind you in some countries the discovery of a snail in ones ginger beer would be considered a bonus.

Quite true.......no recall but value-added though. Got to say, I am not sure myself whether a recall should prevail. Snails are probably loners (unlike Microbes which tend to congregate) so this "affected product" could well be just an isolated case......does this sound a good reason to withhold recall.

CHeers

Charles Chew

Edited by charleschew, 20 July 2004 - 04:24 PM.

[Charles Chew]

Hi Franco,

Yes! Have to agree with you that the potential area of concern is very likely to be where you store the empty bottles. Preventative measures to ensure that the place is reviewed for redesign consideration or cause for other corrective action options.

I know snails are afraid of sulphur but would you consider this as a wise control choice of measure to spread it around the warehouse compound. It is a chemical hazard itself though. Snails are extremely mobile pest that can virtually be anywhere albeit a bit slow but steady. Any other brilliant ideas?

Charles Chew

[Simon]

Got to say, I am not sure myself whether a recall should prevail. Snails are probably loners (unlike Microbes which tend to congregate) so this "affected product" could well be just an isolated case......does this sound a good reason to withhold recall.

I'm not sure either. When you spend zillions of dollars creating a global brand do you want it damaging by a rogue snail(s)? It's interesting in the food industry we only discuss recalls in terms of risk to the consumer from ingesting the product. Yet in other industries they often instigate recalls for safety risks to the consumer, like say a car with wonky brakes or a teddy bear with loose eyes.

As well as considering the consumer shouldn't the business consider invoking a recall for any health, safety, or quality issue including harmless but potentially damaging snails?

I suppose we'd have to run it by Mr Shittlegroover.

Regards,
Simon

[Charles Chew]

I am going to give this one a deep thought and come back with hopefully a good answer to controlling the snail problem.

But meanwhile, Mr Shittlegroover is preparing a meeting with hiis HACCP team to put through a team effort for some sound preventative measures.

Hand on.....some thing came into mind. Would anyone think that putting up fencing around the empty bottle warehouse be a decent measure to ensure this "snail" problem does not recur.


CharlesChew

[Simon]

Hand on.....some thing came into mind. Would anyone think that putting up fencing around the empty bottle warehouse be a decent measure to ensure this "snail" problem does not recur.

I think snails are quite good climbers so I would go for a moat to be on the safe side.

Or how about we cut down all of the vegetation trees, plants, shrubs, grass etc. from around the perimeter and keep maybe a 3 metre clear zone. I don't know how far those guys can walk but it should work.

Regards,
Simon

[Simon]

I just did a search on google to see how far snails can actually walk and came upon this useful site:

http://mamba.bio.uci...hers/Snails.htm

The snippet below is taken from the site:

Snail's Pace: Snails are known for their slow pace. Most of them move only about two or three inches per minute or about seventeen miles a year.

The above prompted me to do the following analysis:

Snail Perambulation Capability Study

Max speed per minute = 3 inches
Max speed per hour = 180 inches*

*Provided the snail can maintain the maximum speed for a full hour.

1 inch = 2.54cm
180 inches = 457.2 cm

On this basis it would take a snail 6.56 hours (at full throttle) to traverse the 3 metre clear zone I recommended in my earlier post. Realistically the snail would be expected to stop for at least one coffee break and a toilet stop on route. Therefore a single patrol of the factory perimeter each 8 hour shift should be enough to prevent further snail ingress.

What do you think?

Regards,
Simon

[Charles Chew]

On this basis it would take a snail 6.56 hours (at full throttle) to traverse the 3 metre clear zone

What a first class in-depth analysis? Well done, Simon..........I have nothing to say but only to concur with your "snail simulation" validation.

Lets catch and get rid of them during their "pit-stops"........even Michael Schooosmacher need to have his usual 6.9 seconds pit-stops.

Regards
Charles Chew

[Franco]

Therefore a single patrol of the factory perimeter each 8 hour shift should be enough to prevent further snail ingress.

Well, it would work if proper instructions were given
What if they see the snail, record the observation and then go on patrolling ?

[Charles Chew]

Franco,

Would it work if we have "operation snails" as a test measure covered over say a week to analyse Simon's recommendation together with the moat around the parameter.

A week should be enough for any snails to reach their destinations ...right! And, if we continue to see snails making entry into sacred grounds, abandon recommendation and back to the drawing board.

Any more brilliant ideas?

Charles Chew

[Simon]

Would it work if we have "operation snails" as a test measure covered over say a week to analyse Simon's recommendation together with the moat around the parameter.

Better hang fire on the moat guys until we find out the results of this experiment:

Activity # 5 - Can snails swim?

Method: Small Group

Objective: To experiment to see if land snails can swim.

Materials:

- A snail for each student
- A small bowl of water for each student

Students will date and write the question 'Can snails swim'? in their science notebook. They will then make a prediction of whether they think the snail can swim or not. Each student will have a small bowl of water and a snail. Students put the snails into the water and observe what happens. If the snail just drops to the bottom of the bowl or floats without moving it will be concluded that the snail cannot swim. If the snail moves through the water, it will be concluded that the snail can swim.

Science Notebook: Students draw a picture and write a one-word answer to the question of whether the snail can or cannot swim.

http://mamba.bio.uci...hers/Snails.htm

It's from our favourite snail site. Lot's more experiments listed on there - unfortunatley no results posted.

Regards,
Simon

[Franco]

Method: Small Group

Objective: To experiment to see if land snails can swim.

Method: one to one competition.

Objective: To experiment to see if the Big Boss can fly himself

Applicant will be invited to reach the top of Empire State Building and enjoy a short conversation with their Big Boss.

Time one minute will be given to throw him down and record results

[Charles Chew]

“The safeguarding, or protection of food from anything that could harm the consumer’s health

Simon,

Does this guarantee you safe food before the indicative expiry date of a product?

Charles Chew

[Simon]

Simon,

Does this guarantee you safe food before the indicative expiry date of a product?

Charles Chew

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for bringing this thread back on track Charles - it had meandered a little.

In answer to your question - well yes I think so because:

'The safeguarding or protection of food from ANYTHING that could harm the consumer's health.'

‘ANYTHING' being the operative word. Although in reality this is nothing more than a worthy objective.

Regards,
Simon

[Charles Chew]

Although in reality this is nothing more than a worthy objective.

Hi Simon,

Its a very vast subject. Mind you, being HACCP Certified and compliant does not make your food any safer than the bloke who does the same product in a shack if the controls are not functionally in place.......example, as evident in "Exhibit A and Kr_ft Foods"

To suggest that all foods are guaranteed safe from a HACCP-Certified facility is utter rubbish. Having a HACCP Food Safety System merely suggests that you have identified the critical hazards and hopefully, the pre-determined controls to monitor their "behaviours" show that you are at the front seats.

So what is the purpose of an "expiry date" when even an operating food safety system itself may be in question.

That depends on the product that you are referring to. Most products with a 1-year expiry date would have lost its "functional/marketable values" say within 14 days but remain safe to eat/drink thoughout its indicative product lifespan. Example - Your Bottle of Lager Beer is probably good for only 14 days (Franco, will you please verify) if you wish to drink one that has "body". But, generally after 14 days, most of the carbon dioxide that makes it "carbonated" would have "micro-leaked out".............and that, my friend is when you complain to the Bartender that your beer tasted FLAT.....but does it mean that it is not safe (Not True).....it is safe but organoleptically it has failed.

Again, take the fruit jam for example. On the day of the 2-year expiry date, the bottle of jam was opened. Result was the gumming system of the pectin had deteriorated.........bottom line was the product was somewhat watery but still managed to spread over a bread or two however, it remained safe to eat.

Alternatively, the bottle of jam had mould growth after about 1 month from production date which is way before the expiry date............indicatively from the expiry date, it meant to be safe for consumption BUT the mould growth shows it is not safe at all.

So, an "expiry date" is nothing more than to inform the consumers that the product would meet all consumers' product expectations (organoleptic wise) within the time line. (Most post-expiry date products remain safe to eat).......I know I will get a lot of butt-kicking here but what the heck.

Which brings us back to "safe foods".............so what exactly is safe food and can we really safeguard our foods from ANYTHING tha may possibly cause it to be harmful to consumers?

Cheers
Charles Chew

[Simon]

Example - Your Bottle of Lager Beer is probably good for only 14 days (Franco, will you please verify). 

Yes he does like a beer or three. I believe he's away on holiday this coming week so he will probably be much too incoherent to answer.

Which brings us back to "safe foods".............so what exactly is safe food and can we really safeguard our foods from ANYTHING that may possibly cause it to be harmful to consumers? 

The Food Safety (General Food Hygiene) Regulations 1995 states that 'hygiene' means:

"All measures necessary to ensure the safety and wholesomeness of food during preparation, processing, manufacturing, packaging, storing, transportation, distribution, handling and offering for sale or supply to the consumer.'

Even if do you take 'all measures necessary' you will not safeguard food from ANYTHING that may possibly cause it to be harmful to consumers (even planes crash). But you can minimise the risk. In British law this is called a 'due diligence defence' and if the food business can prove that they have taken all practicable measures it can get you out of the doo doo even if a consumer was seriously injured by your food product.

Cheers
Simon

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Charles Chew]

if the food business can prove that they have taken all practicable measures it can get you out of the doo doo

That basically about sums it up.

HACCP is really about putting the responsibility and onus on the producer to proof that it had done the necessary and had followed its food safety program in a manner justifiable against any implications brought against it.

That would bring us to the topic of how many HACCP compliant organization do keep a due diligience on its own Haccp Program.

Back to the Can of Lager - You are a Lager Beer Lover AND, what would you do about it when you picked up a carton this morning for your afternoon BBQ and found out later that they were flat beers.



Regards
Charles Chew

[Simon]

Well if my was I would and then . Next I would probably crack open a few nice whites and and then finally .

[Charles Chew]

I kind of got your pretty illustrative message. Time Out

Chalres Chew