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ISO/TS 22002-1:2009


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#25 Charles.C

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 09:54 AM

Dear Ken,

Thks for the comments. I deduce that you consider the 22002-1 standard a worthwhile document despite yr diversity caveats. Time will tell I suppose. It does seem remarkable to me that ISO which has been synonymous with generic quality standards has now become so malleable. Interesting times. :smile:

Rgds / Charles.C


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#26 Ken

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 10:37 AM

Dear Ken,

Thks for the comments. I deduce that you consider the 22002-1 standard a worthwhile document despite yr diversity caveats. Time will tell I suppose. It does seem remarkable to me that ISO which has been synonymous with generic quality standards has now become so malleable. Interesting times. :smile:

Rgds / Charles.C


Charles

You deduction is correct!

You have to look at this from a food safety perspective and not an ISO one. As Simon has already said, ISO 22000 without defined PRP's is 'next to useless as a food certification standard' and I must agree with him.

The requirements of safe food production must drive ISO food safety standards and not the other way round!

This is why auditors must have a strong food safety background - a food safety course lasting a few days might be a start for converting non food ISO auditors to ISO 22000 but is way short of the knowledge which is required when auditing in the food industry.
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#27 Charles.C

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:13 PM

Dear All,

ISO 22000 without defined PRP's is 'next to useless


I am probably the very worst person to be a defender of iso 22000 but I think this is rather unfair, eg –

One of the differences between HACCP and ISO 22000 is the ISO standard’s emphasis of the use of prerequisite programs (PRPs). PRPs are generic controls used by any food business operation to maintain hygienic conditions in the processing environment. PRPs stipulate the preconditions necessary for producing safe food. Depending on the type of activity involved, the following defined requirements should be considered:
• Good Agricultural Practice (GAP)
• Good Hygienic Practice (GHP)
• Good Production Practice (GPP)
• Good Distribution Practice (GDP)
Additional components of prerequisite programs include, for example, cleaning and sanitizing; pest control; personnel hygiene; construction and layout of buildings and associated utilities; supplies of air, water, energy, and other utilities; supporting services such as waste and sewage disposal; supplier control; employee training; and more.


http://www.qualitydi...-iso-22000.html

Having now had a look at a summary of the iso 2002-1 sub-sections, I wonder if GFSI will now criticise this document as being over – prescriptive! Out of curiosity, I attempted on the iso website to find any indications of their thinking over the current issues in the context of maximising food safety but failed. I do wonder what the ISO perspective on all this is. Whatever, they certainly appear to be playing hardball now.

I also (very) crudely gauged the degree of explicitness of the GFSI Guidance ver 5 by doing a check of Part2- Annex1 for the appearance of the words “must”,"shall", “should”, and “appropriate”. The results were rather surprising IMO, namely: 1, 0, 210, 35. (the “1” was “Staff must be properly trained against the documented hygiene standards” and occurred in the GAP column, not GMP or GDP).

I liked the section on Auditor Behavioural Characteristics, no source given unfortunately -

7.5.8 Attributes and Competencies
The Certification Body must have a system in place to ensure auditors conduct themselves in a
professional manner. The following provide examples of required behaviour.

• Ethical, i.e. fair, truthful, sincere, honest and discreet.
• Open minded, i.e. willing to consider alternative ideas or points of view.
• Diplomatic, i.e. tactful in dealing with people.
• Observant, i.e. actually aware of physical surroundings and activities.
• Perceptive, i.e. instinctive, aware of and able to understand situations.
• Versatile, i.e. adjust readily to different situations.
• Tenacious, i.e. persistent, focussed on achieving objectives.
• Decisive, i.e. timely conclusions based on logical reasoning.
• Self reliant, i.e. acts independently whilst interacting effectively with others.
• Integrity – aware of need for confidentiality and observing professional code of conduct.

Still wondering what the “observant” one means. :smile:
I suppose aspects like “ should display appropriate knowledge” are taken as a prerequisite. :rolleyes:

Rgds / Charles.C
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#28 Ken

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 07:13 AM

Dear All,

I am probably the very worst person to be a defender of iso 22000 but I think this is rather unfair, eg –


OK a little harsh maybe but you are right in the that ISO 22000 does refer to PRP's. However, ISO 22002 gives a little bit more detail to at least give a basis of a common understanding.

If you take an area which I am less familiar with such as agricultural then I don't really know what the PRP's for this sector would be so a technical standard similar to ISO 22002-1 but aimed at the agricultural sector would be helpful to at least trying to get a common approach to auditing this sector of the food industry.
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#29 vasman

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 07:49 AM

OK a little harsh maybe but you are right in the that ISO 22000 does refer to PRP's. However, ISO 22002 gives a little bit more detail to at least give a basis of a common understanding.

If you take an area which I am less familiar with such as agricultural then I don't really know what the PRP's for this sector would be so a technical standard similar to ISO 22002-1 but aimed at the agricultural sector would be helpful to at least trying to get a common approach to auditing this sector of the food industry.



Dear Ken,

I agree with you. We should not be so hard with ISO. Maybe the hole theme is a little bit complicated and "interlaced" but it is for common good. Many factories do not take into account some of the PRPs refered in ISO 22002. The main reason is that they can't think about it or they want to avoid it if it is not written. So some explainatory guidelines are always wellcomed.
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#30 Charles.C

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 11:56 AM

Dear Ken,

It is possible that my previous post was poorly constructed and thereby misleading. My evaluation of GFSI was across the data in all three categories of GAP, GMP and GDP, it just happened that the one occurrence of "must" fell into the GAP category.

I suppose if nothing else, the current upheaval will generate a useful updated version of Codex / GMP. Pity it's not publicly available for free.

If anyone is interested in seeing the GFSI's original asessment of ISO 2200 (2007), see -

Attached File  GFSI_eval._iso_22000_.pdf   797.96KB   146 downloads


Rgds / Charles.C


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#31 FSSM

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 03:55 PM

Also I would like to know whether this renders PAS220 obsolete and whether FSSC 22000 will be using ISO/TS 22002-1:2009, PAS 220 or both / either. As well as whether this release has any impact (positive/negative) on FSSC 22000 itself.

Regards,
Simon


Hi Simon,

ISO/TS 220002-1:2009 can be used for FSSC see document attached. I don´t think it has a negative impact. Maybe PAS 220 will be in the market for a while until ISO/TS 220002-1:2009 takes its first steps.

Attached File  Changes.pdf   31.6KB   149 downloads

Should this topic be moved to FSSC 22000 forum?

Regards,

FSSM
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#32 Tony-C

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 04:31 AM

Hi Simon,

ISO/TS 220002-1:2009 can be used for FSSC see document attached. I don´t think it has a negative impact. Maybe PAS 220 will be in the market for a while until ISO/TS 220002-1:2009 takes its first steps.

Attached File  Changes.pdf   31.6KB   149 downloads

Should this topic be moved to FSSC 22000 forum?

Regards,

FSSM


Thanks for that FSSM

I had a personal notification from FSSC but not seen any anouncements

Please can you tell us where did you get that FSSC 22000 changes document from and when?

Kind regards,

Tony
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#33 Madam A. D-tor

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 07:17 AM

The changes can be found in:

http://www.fssc22000.com/page.php click [downloads] click [changes].

I think it is released on January 7th 2010.


Edited by Madam A. D-tor, 01 February 2010 - 07:27 AM.

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#34 Simon

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 07:41 PM

Should this topic be moved to FSSC 22000 forum?

You're right FSSM. I moved it.

The changes can be found in:

http://www.fssc22000.com/page.php click [changes].

I think it is released on January 7th 2010.

Is the link correct Madam A. D-tor - I get a blank page?
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#35 Madam A. D-tor

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 07:28 AM

Is the link correct Madam A. D-tor - I get a blank page?


You are right Simon. The link refers to several menu items. Just click doenloads and then click changes.
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#36 Simon

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 08:27 AM

You are right Simon. The link refers to several menu items. Just click doenloads and then click changes.

For the lazy - FSSC 22000 Changes

Regards,
Simon
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