94 replies to this topic

[Tony-C]

We enforce proper hand washing and use gloves/sanitizer. Here is our procedure:

 

Have you thought about a version with pictures as they tend to work quite well?

 

Regards,

 

Tony

[TheDude]

Have you thought about a version with pictures as they tend to work quite well?

 

Regards,

 

Tony

 

Agreed. We also have instructions with pictures posted above each wash sink.

[Mr. Incognito]

I still say that using gloves provides a false sense of food safety.  It would be better to have proper and effective hand washing practiced at a facility than gloves.

[KevinB]

HI Simon,

 

This is an argument that I lost a year ago. My opinion is that gloves are an illusion of cleanliness and that people do not treat their gloved hands with the same care they do bare hands. I gave up fighting this after attending a risk reduction seminar for cheese makers. I asked the professor giving it his opinion on the subject. His response was "What side would you like me to be on? I can argue booth side equally as well with equal amounts of data to refute the other sides arguments. Neither side can win." It all boils down to perception and most people's perception, in my opinion, is "they have gloves on they must have good sanitation practices".  Almost everyone who visits our facility has commented on the crew wearing gloves and how good it is to see that. 

[Charles.C]

Dear Kevin Burnsteel,

 

I would suggest it also depends on certain specific perceptions, eg Training, logical sanitation practices, monitoring. HACCP ?

 

IMO, as per yr closing sentence, a sampling of the preference for a "critical" step addressed to visitors's perceptions  would significantly favour the glove option even if "appropriate" hygiene controls were guaranteed either way. Human's perception of other humans ?

 

Rgds / Charles.C

[Tony-C]

Almost everyone who visits our facility has commented on the crew wearing gloves and how good it is to see that. 

 

And .......they probably will continue to do so until they find a glove or part of a glove in a product.

 

Swings and roundabouts

 

Regards,

 

Tony

[Mr. Incognito]

Excellent point Tony.

 

In a previous position we did require some position to wear gloves.  We never had that happen to us but we did have an ingredient supplier, whom we copacked for, ship us domes that had bits of glove in it.  We found 3 domes that had glove pieces in them and highlights another reason why I don't like gloves.

 

If you lose a finger in the product your going to know right away.  If you lose a piece of glove apparently you might not.

[jamesdlm]

OK we've had the debate so which, taking everything into account and in your opinion is the safest - gloves or handwashing. Please vote in the poll.

Simon

Simon,

 

Much of this discussion seems to be comparing proper hand washing to neglectful glove use. I would assert that proper glove use (i.e. properly washing hands before donning gloves, and appropriately changing gloves is safer than bare hand contact. would you prefer your surgeon properly wash only and then dig in with bare hands, or properly glove (which includes the proper wash step)? 

 

James

[Snookie]

Simon,
 
Much of this discussion seems to be comparing proper hand washing to neglectful glove use. I would assert that proper glove use (i.e. properly washing hands before donning gloves, and appropriately changing gloves is safer than bare hand contact. would you prefer your surgeon properly wash only and then dig in with bare hands, or properly glove (which includes the proper wash step)? 
 
James

Surgical gloves are different.....they are sterilized. What we use in the food industry are not sterilized. Surgical protocols are far different than what most of do in the food industry. And in emergency situations, bare hands have been used without issue (at least from the hands).

We have become so reliant on gloves but am curious under what conditions they are manufactured under. Inquiring mind. We would like to believe under good GMP, but we would also like to believe that of a lot of companies.....but that doesn't make it true.

Edited by Snookie, 27 November 2013 - 06:47 PM.

[Simon]

Simon,

 

Much of this discussion seems to be comparing proper hand washing to neglectful glove use. I would assert that proper glove use (i.e. properly washing hands before donning gloves, and appropriately changing gloves is safer than bare hand contact. would you prefer your surgeon properly wash only and then dig in with bare hands, or properly glove (which includes the proper wash step)? 

 

James

 

Yes very good point, the surgeon illustrates the point very well.  I would prefer him wearing gloves, however, there is a difference between a surgeon massaging my innards and a food worker prepping my chicken.  I think.

 

Whatever the choice the keyword is effectiveness, an effective system beats the ineffective system hands down. If they are both super effective then maybe gloves is safer.  But, a key factor in building and maintaining an effective system is simplicity and gloves are an added complication.

[Mr. Incognito]

Without proper hand washing an operator is probably going to contaminate their gloves just putting them on.  Start with the basics imho.  If you have proper hand washing then the need for gloves is really irrelevant. They make you smile and feel good... so does beer.

[Ruhama]

Both hand washing and gloves washing need to be done thoroughly. I am working in a Production Company at Processing plant. We are not using disposal gloves we use Heavy Duty Nitrile Lined Green glove. When entering processing facility they are washed properly and sanitized just like hands. Following the hand washing instructions.  

[Mr. Incognito]

At my last plant our policy was to change gloves not wash them because we didn't have any studies on how the chemicals in the soap/sanitizer may affect the gloves.  If it dissolves the gloves at all then there may be entry points from the outside to the inside and vice versa.

 

People from the company we co-packed for told me it was acceptable to wash gloves but in the end we decided against it.

[Empirestate]

We just handwash every 30 minutes or after breaks or after a product is changed. Swob testing has shown this to be very effective in our case

[Mr. Incognito]

On an aside when I saw "Empirestate" I thought you were in NY like me (New York is the Empire State) lol

 

 

Back on topic:

 

You can't argue with results.

[MWidra]

I just stumbled on this topic, and it has been interesting to read.  We just decided this summer to stop using gloves.  Our building is not air conditioned, and the process produces heat.  Sometimes the temperature in the building reaches 100 degrees.  Yes, I monitor the temperature and the workers are instructed to drink water and leave the hot area every 15 minutes at those times.  When they were wearing gloves, some of the workers perspired a lot, which created a hazard as well.

 

So we decided to push frequent hand washing and not require gloves.  Our product is low moisture and not RTE, and is mostly contained in the equipment.  It's not like they are handling a lot of materials.

 

I think we are going to do well.  I just started ATP monitoring this week, and without any increase in the sanitation, I did not see high readings on places where the hands touch.  We are initiating a regular sanitizing wipe of hand contact locations, and we'll see how this makes the readings go down even more, but they were not that bad to start with.

 

I definitely agree, wearing PPE gives people the "Superman" complex, they think they can do anything and everything is protected.  I think they are more careful with no gloves on.

 

Martha

[mamad123]

Hi,,

 

I prefer to use both of them. but in one condition that every 1 hour, handwashing (50 ppm chlorine) should be conducted.

when we did the validation. we got satisfied result on hand swabbing and product's TPC.

 

regards

[teaks]

My experience is that, when wearing gloves, employees tend to let them get dirtier (with product - not with dirt) then they do with bare hands.  Additionally, our employees hate waste, so they don't want to throw out the gloves! Yikes!

The other problem with gloves is the foreign material aspect:  If someone's glove rips, now you have to look for the missing piece......

[KevinB]

I gave up the fight and threw in the towel. We used to do business with the DOD and one of there inspectors came in and pushed the issue. There concern was for staph. The first time they came to inspect they took samples for micro testing. They didn't even test for staph.!! I gave up the fight when i asked the instructor   giving a food safety risk reduction course for artisan cheese makers if he could help me with this. He said sure what side of the arugement do you want me to argue? I can argue booth sides equally and neither side can win. It boils down to peoples perception. We now wear gloves and have been for about a year and a half. We have a viewing area into our plant and whenever anyone comes in they go ohh and ahhh they must be clean look everyone is wearing gloves. I personally hate them as a general requirement for everyone. For specific tasks I agree with there use.

 

Without proper hand washing an operator is probably going to contaminate their gloves just putting them on.  Start with the basics imho.  If you have proper hand washing then the need for gloves is really irrelevant. They make you smile and feel good... so does beer.

 

 I agree with MR.I it give everyone a false since of security.  

[Charles.C]

I just stumbled on this topic, and it has been interesting to read.  We just decided this summer to stop using gloves.  Our building is not air conditioned, and the process produces heat.  Sometimes the temperature in the building reaches 100 degrees.  Yes, I monitor the temperature and the workers are instructed to drink water and leave the hot area every 15 minutes at those times.  When they were wearing gloves, some of the workers perspired a lot, which created a hazard as well.

 

So we decided to push frequent hand washing and not require gloves.  Our product is low moisture and not RTE, and is mostly contained in the equipment.  It's not like they are handling a lot of materials.

 

I think we are going to do well.  I just started ATP monitoring this week, and without any increase in the sanitation, I did not see high readings on places where the hands touch.  We are initiating a regular sanitizing wipe of hand contact locations, and we'll see how this makes the readings go down even more, but they were not that bad to start with.

 

I definitely agree, wearing PPE gives people the "Superman" complex, they think they can do anything and everything is protected.  I think they are more careful with no gloves on.

 

Martha

 

Dear MWidra,

 

From the Workers POV, are these temperature conditions legally permitted ? Or perhaps this is the point of the 15min exercise ?

 

It reminds me of the rules in WTA tennis tournaments ( + humidity from memory).

 

Perhaps it relates to the process also.

 

BTW, atp does not necessarily monitor microbiological status.

 

AC is not an option ?

 

Rgds / Charles.C

[MWidra]

From the Workers POV, are these temperature conditions legally permitted ? Or perhaps this is the point of the 15min exercise ?

 

It reminds me of the rules in WTA tennis tournaments ( + humidity from memory).

 

Perhaps it relates to the process also.

 

BTW, atp does not necessarily monitor microbiological status.

 

AC is not an option ?

 

Rgds / Charles.C

Yes, these temps are OK as long as they drink and take the breaks.  I've got the OSHA heat safety app on my phone, and I go back and check the building temp during the day.  Also, people can tolerate these temps better if they are exposed to them gradually, over a period of 2 weeks.  Some of our workers are well acclimated.  This is inside, not in the sun, which helps a lot.

 

I'm well aware that ATP does not check for specific microbes, only biological material.  Very familiar with luciferin and luciferase reactions from doing luminescence assays.  We are fortunate that none of our products contain ATP (all cellulose powder), so any ATP is some form of contamination from workers or the outside.  It's a cleanliness tool.  Our process is almost totally contained in the equipment, so it is mostly "untouched by human hands."

 

AC is not an option.  The building is too large (about 3 stories high with a decent footprint, all open) to even attempt.

 

As an aside, I remember when Johns Hopkins University was working on the luciferin/luciferase system and bought lightning bugs from kids.  It's the basis for all ATP luminescence testing.

 

http://retrobaltimor...-lightning-bugs

 

Martha.

Edited by MWidra, 19 December 2014 - 03:31 PM.

[Charles.C]

TBH, i think the WTA results demonstrated that the parameters as used in OSHA app may have some limitations.

 

Having had to work in 100+degF when the AC failed, i have some pity for the workers.

 

Better watch out for Crabs with Guns

 

Rgds / Charles.C

Edited by Charles.C, 19 December 2014 - 04:11 PM.
edited

[Mr. Incognito]

The puppies have all the guns... none for crabs 

[Charles.C]

Dear Mr Inc.

 

Getting a bit too OT i fear, must be the Xmas Spirit(s).

 

Rgds / Charles.C

[MWidra]

The puppies have all the guns... none for crabs 

 

Crabs don't need guns.  Anyone who has handled them is scared to come close to those claws.

 

And, to attempt to get this a little less OT, no glove will protect you from this.

 

Martha

Edited by MWidra, 19 December 2014 - 04:18 PM.