33 replies to this topic

[Simon]

Near to where I live there are two local butchers; one is a traditional old shop who has been in situ for many years. He only sells raw meats. His shop is always impeccably clean and when I go past I often see him cleaning. I’m sure he even closes one day a wee k for a deep clean.

The other butchers are bigger and have a huge choice of raw and cooked meats, pies and all sorts of delicatessen type foods. It is a brand new shop and is kitted out very nicely.

I usually go to the old timers shop but the other day by chance I had to go to the new one as I was on my way home from the park and I passed it. There was quite a queue and I observed all three butchers as they were serving customers. Whenever they moved from serving a customer with raw meat to cooked meat they made a gesture of washing their hands.

The hand washing procedure was literally:

1. Run the cold water tap (very low)
2. Put tips of fingers under for about 1 second
3. Dry hands on a blue towel (wind up towel)

From my limited knowledge this was a very poor effort and I doubt actually did anything to remove any potential bacteria. What did I do / say? Nothing. Well when I say nothing, I told the wife and we agreed not to go there anymore.

But I’ve been thinking what should I do?

Regards,
Simon

[SaRaRa]

I usually go very harsh on such issues! I am always direct and sincere. If I don't like something I just say it the way it is. Truth usually doesn't sound nice and there is no kind way to say such things and no "being nice" when people don't treat you right (and they know it and they don't really care for anything but making the most profit). Unfortunately the Greek reality is such that noone really does something to change the minds of people concerning such matters (hygiene, client services etc)... And unfortunately they can rarely be changed anyway!

What I would do in your case is to try to mention the problem to them so that, if they are not aware of it, they would do something to correct it. It will make good to everyone and I would have nothing to lose anyway.

Cheers!
Filip

[Simon]

What I would do in your case is to try to mention the problem to them so that, if they are not aware of it, they would do something to correct it. It will make good to everyone and I would have nothing to lose anyway.

Thanks for the reply Filip. You are right of course I should say something and I have done in other instances where I have seen issues in various shops, supermarkets, restaurants etc. so I am a bit angry with myself for keeping quiet this time. Maybe I’m mellowing with age.

It definitely isn’t a knowledge gap as they have shiny Basic Food Hygiene certificates on the wall – it’s the practical application of the knowledge again that’s amiss.

Regards,
Simon

[Penard]

yep, it underlines that a good quality meat doesn't mean a high food safety level...For me it happened last year - the butcher used the same knife to cut several poultries and then a piece of beef, I pretend to forget to do sthg to go out...That was the last time I went to this shop!

Washing hands very important, but also the location of the products - be careful if you find the beef, pork poultry or cooked meatjust closed to the beef or the veal for example. The number of knifes and the location of the table dedicated (or not...) to cut special species, the smell in the shop, who is in charge of giving the consumer his change - the butcher or his wife e.g.

I've worked for years in the meat industry, some of our customers were butchers, I went and audit some shops and it happened I gave them some advices and requirements,

Best regards,

Emmanuel

[Simon]

yep, it underlines that a good quality meat doesn't mean a high food safety level...For me it happened last year - the butcher used the same knife to cut several poultries and then a piece of beef, I pretend to forget to do sthg to go out...That was the last time I went to this shop!

Washing hands very important, but also the location of the products - be careful if you find the beef, pork poultry or cooked meatjust closed to the beef or the veal for example. The number of knifes and the location of the table dedicated (or not...) to cut special species, the smell in the shop, who is in charge of giving the consumer his change - the butcher or his wife e.g.

I've worked for years in the meat industry, some of our customers were butchers, I went and audit some shops and it happened I gave them some advices and requirements,

Best regards,

Emmanuel

It's a good point about the organisation of the food to prevent cross contamination and also dedicated chopping boards and knives. They had all of these in place. Probably perfect, no expense spared when setting up. But it all comes to nothing when simple controls like hand washing are ignored. My confidence totally disappeared like my business.

If we cannot stand up for what is right we are lost. Time for action.

Regards,
Simon

[Zeeshan]

But I’ve been thinking what should I do?

Regards,
Simon

Dear Simon,

I came to know that regulatory bodies, agencies, consumers' associations and food inspectors in UK are very much active and dedicated regarding food safety and consumers' health issues. If it is true, (and I hope it must be) you can post your complaints in written to any or all of them so that peoples might not suffer due to bad hygiene practices the butchers have adopted.

IMO, consumers should share authenticated information with clear identification of mal-practitioners to at least their colleagues, neighbors, friends and if possible to regulatory agencies.

Just saying to a mal-practitioner does not work, IMEX.

By the way, good job by introducing "Consumer Food Safety - Complaints & Advice". . This is a must have category on such forum.

But I have a fear that someone may use this platform by indicating the name of his competitor as "BAD MAN".

Regards:

[Simon]

Dear Simon,

I came to know that regulatory bodies, agencies, consumers' associations and food inspectors in UK are very much active and dedicated regarding food safety and consumers' health issues. If it is true, (and I hope it must be) you can post your complaints in written to any or all of them so that peoples might not suffer due to bad hygiene practices the butchers have adopted.

IMO, consumers should share authenticated information with clear identification of mal-practitioners to at least their colleagues, neighbors, friends and if possible to regulatory agencies.

Just saying to a mal-practitioner does not work, IMEX.

By the way, good job by introducing "Consumer Food Safety - Complaints & Advice". . This is a must have category on such forum.

But I have a fear that someone may use this platform by indicating the name of his competitor as "BAD MAN".

Regards:

Thanks for the feedback Zeeshan. I agree it has been a missing part of the forum. Now I just have to promote it better along with the site in general.

With regard to the information we provide I think here we have enough knowledge on the forum to give technical and practical food safety advice to consumers and where appropriate point them in the direction of the correct official body.

Of course we must always be careful about verifying the validity of information posted and that is part of moderator’s job to keep a watchful eye on this.

For my part I am going to talk to the butchers to tell them why I will not be using them anymore.

Regards,
Simon

[Zeeshan]

For my part I am going to talk to the butchers to tell them why I will not be using them anymore.

Regards,
Simon

But before starting to talk with the butchers, please be careful and be sure he or she should not have any knife or chopper with him or her. As a general practice whenever my wife is in angry mood and I am going to her to resolve the issue, I go there with lot of preparations .


Regards:

[MRios]

Completely agree with Zeeshan! Maybe the sight of a big old knife was enough to keep you from saying anything at the time. But, like I always say, it´s very good to get a customer complaint, because that means that the customer is giving you a chance to improve your product / service.
I think that just pouring a little water over your dirty fingers does nothing but stir up all the bacteria on them. A worse thought is: what if that´s the way they always wash their hands, even after using the bathroom!!

[Simon]

I think that just pouring a little water over your dirty fingers does nothing but stir up all the bacteria on them. A worse thought is: what if that´s the way they always wash their hands, even after using the bathroom!!

Thats exactly what I thought. It throws everything else into question and that's why I won't be shopping there again.

Regards,
Simon

[Charles.C]

Of course, one other option might be to not use the hands for non-raw goods ?? I thought that this was the most common general procedure, but apparently not in UK (butchers) / Simon's locality. ??

Charles.C

[MRios]

so let´s say they use gloves. How often should they change their gloves? They should still be washing their hands, even if they use gloves (what if the glove rips?).

[Charles.C]

Dear mRios,

(what if the glove rips?

Use tongs

Charles.C

[Simon]

I've never seen any butchers here using gloves. Some supermarkets and shops do. Anyway I much prefer hands that are washed properly.

Hands and figures are the best tools in the world.

Simon

[itay.sh]

For once, I'd call the health ispectors. Dealing with raw and cooked meat together is a health issue for sure.

The best way, though, is to call a TV watchdog to film them. That may drive them out of business.

But who am I kidding? Just last week I ate raw fish (salmon fillet) cut with the same knife as other fish. In my personal life I don't care much, and for my baby I always overcook the food.

[itay.sh]

I've never seen any butchers here using gloves. Some supermarkets and shops do. Anyway I much prefer hands that are washed properly.

It's a known fact that gloves require better attention than hand washing. Doctors replace gloves each time they touching something else; food servers are keeping the gloves, sometimes for a full day, in order to save money, and when you have a glove- you don't wash it as often (or as any) you'd do with bare hands. I'd prefer good washers and disinfectants near the work station than gloves any day, any person, any industry.

[Tony-C]

There is no substitute for proper hand washing and this certainly reduces the risk of contamination.

I am a firm believer that you should avoid handling cooked or ready to eat food with your hands.

If you use utensils or gloves this still needs to be managed. The methodology in some supermarkets has been thought through where the staff hold a bag from the outside and pick the food up with the inside of the bag.

Ideally different staff should work with cooked and raw meats which is where the problems come in with small butchers and perhaps the reason why we see outbreaks from this type of establishment.

Regards,

Tony

[Penard]

Hi Tony,

Completely agree with your opinion,

regards,

Emmanuel

[deme trio]

Hi All,

The use of gloves i believe would put us more on a safer side. but i think whats important here is the consistent monitoring of the management on staff practices.

on the question of how often we change gloves;

we change gloves when;

- its torn
-change task (anything at all)
-every after 1 hour of continuous use

important "wash hands and disinfect every after gloves is changed"


thanks

[Simon]

Hi All,

The use of gloves i believe would put us more on a safer side. but i think whats important here is the consistent monitoring of the management on staff practices.

on the question of how often we change gloves;

we change gloves when;

- its torn
-change task (anything at all)
-every after 1 hour of continuous use

important "wash hands and disinfect every after gloves is changed"


thanks

Hi Deme, I agree supervision and monitoring of staff practices are important and equally as important is having clear policies and rules, available equipment (where necessary) and the senior staff leading by example by folowing the rules all of the time.

Regards,
Simon

[Charles.C]

Dear deme-trio,

-every after 1 hour of continuous use

Assuming you mean the same job, this is unique IMEX. Amazing ! and Expensive !

What product are you handling ?

Rgds / Charles.C

[Tony-C]

I usually go to the old timers shop but the other day by chance I had to go to the new one as I was on my way home from the park and I passed it. There was quite a queue and I observed all three butchers as they were serving customers. Whenever they moved from serving a customer with raw meat to cooked meat they made a gesture of washing their hands.

The hand washing procedure was literally:

1. Run the cold water tap (very low)
2. Put tips of fingers under for about 1 second
3. Dry hands on a blue towel (wind up towel)

From my limited knowledge this was a very poor effort and I doubt actually did anything to remove any potential bacteria. What did I do / say? Nothing. Well when I say nothing, I told the wife and we agreed not to go there anymore.

The problem with this and this type of establishment is that authorities only seem to take action when they are prompted by a food poisoning outbreak.

Regards,

Tony

[GMO]

I agree Tony but they might be more twitchy about butchers seeing as they've been the major causes of EColi outbreaks in recent years, some causing deaths.

I've not read all of the replies but I would certainly have urged them to wash their hands properly but a better method would be to have only some members of staff serving cooked produce and others serving raw. It's not just hands that can cross contaminate because it's easy to touch your clothing (especially if they don't dry their hands properly). If that's not changed between the two it can be just as bad.

I personally don't agree with gloves in a small shop like that. I've never seen them used well. People always think because they have gloves on, their hands are clean and that's obviously untrue, especially when you see people handling money, going from raw to cooked etc.

[Tony-C]

I agree Tony but they might be more twitchy about butchers seeing as they've been the major causes of EColi outbreaks in recent years, some causing deaths.

I've not read all of the replies but I would certainly have urged them to wash their hands properly but a better method would be to have only some members of staff serving cooked produce and others serving raw.

From post 17

There is no substitute for proper hand washing and this certainly reduces the risk of contamination.

I am a firm believer that you should avoid handling cooked or ready to eat food with your hands.

If you use utensils or gloves this still needs to be managed. The methodology in some supermarkets has been thought through where the staff hold a bag from the outside and pick the food up with the inside of the bag.

Ideally different staff should work with cooked and raw meats which is where the problems come in with small butchers and perhaps the reason why we see outbreaks from this type of establishment.

Hi GMO

Absolutely, they probably are "twitchy" about butchers but this does not excuse the fact it seems to be reactive rather than proactive enforcement or am I being harsh?

Regards,

Tony

[Simon]

From post 17

Hi GMO

Absolutely, they probably are "twitchy" about butchers but this does not excuse the fact it seems to be reactive rather than proactive enforcement or am I being harsh?

Regards,

Tony

I think EHO's are proactive at heart but do not have the resources to be fully proactive in practice, it would be almost impossible to police the zillions of food establishments effectively. It's the same with Health & Safety Executive, they only come knocking following an accident. Maybe a third party certification scheme is in order?

Regards,
Simon