33 replies to this topic

[Charles.C]

Dear Simon,

I think EHO's are proactive at heart but do not have the resources to be fully proactive in practice, it would be almost impossible to police the zillions of food establishments effectively. It's the same with Health & Safety Executive, they only come knocking following an accident. Maybe a third party certification scheme is in order

I think you may be being too generous. I have occasionally seen actual (probably) reports of EHO inspections publishd on the net. It appears that the tolerances are considerable compared to inspection of large scale manufacturing plants (the scale-up factor?). Similar kind of compromise as had to be made regarding the SFBB project, I imagine.

To put it another way, the (known-in-the-trade?) tolerances may be why yr butcher is still following his suspect procedures (IHEX ??). I find it hard to believe he has no idea of the possible consequences.

As per another thread, back to "implementation". Gotta blame somebody.

One suggestion - you might casually drop in to yr local EHO office (exists?) and enquire if there are any statistics on incidents due to "XXXX" in butcher's establishments ? Just another act of good citizenship at work.

Rgds / Charles.C

[pawilliams1]

I think that the main problem with food safety enforcement in the UK is that it is fragmented and reactive.

The company I work for used to be regulated by two enforcement authorities - the Meat Hygiene Service for fresh meat and the local authority for processed meats. Our customers in turn were regulated by either the MHS or their local authority or both.

Now we are regulated by the MHS alone whilst the majority of our customers are regulated by their local authority. I find it strange that a veterinary surgeon should be the enforcement officer in a meat cutting and processing plant - we don't have any live animals coming in or any whole carcasses. What a does vet know about the ready to eat foods that we produce?

Our vet, who is a very nice gentleman, has done a HACCP course but seems to know very little about how it is implemented, verified etc. He does know how to cure a cat of most illnesses though - I can't cure cats but I can do HACCP!

EHO's on the other hand are a source of significant annoyance for us. This is because they are given "shopping baskets" to take samples of and because we are the only major producer in North Wales of a number of products that are in the "shopping basket" then it is very often our products that get sampled. I have seen records where samples of ready to eat foods have been taken at 8.30 in the morning and not being delivered to the PHLS lab until after 4pm - EHO's around here do not drive refrigerated vehicles so the samples have been travelling around all day under unknown conditions.

One EHO actually said to me when I asked to see temperature records of some samples that were taken from a deli (which had come back with suspect results) "I've got a coolbox in my car but we don't monitor the temperature. It's probably OK". My answer to that EHO was not polite enough to quote here!!

Anyhow, I'm digressing. It is my belief that there should be one agency (the FSA) responsible for food safety in the UK, which sets out the licensing of food premises and then polices those premises. There should be clear guidance to all FBO's and to enforcement officers on best practice within food production/service premises and there should be a uniformity of approach to its enforcement.

Mind you, I am a bit radical because I still think that not only should all food premises be licensed but so should the operators. I would go one stage further and say that all persons working in food production and preparation should have a personal license to work with food and that it should be a criminal offence to employ anyone in a food production capacity who does not hold such a license.

[Tony-C]

One EHO actually said to me when I asked to see temperature records of some samples that were taken from a deli (which had come back with suspect results) "I've got a coolbox in my car but we don't monitor the temperature. It's probably OK". My answer to that EHO was not polite enough to quote here!!

Mind you, I am a bit radical because I still think that not only should all food premises be licensed but so should the operators. I would go one stage further and say that all persons working in food production and preparation should have a personal license to work with food and that it should be a criminal offence to employ anyone in a food production capacity who does not hold such a license.

Thanks some good points made

Our local authority used to sample off the production line. We used to test a duplicate sample and also retain a sample to avoid any problems when the PHL came up with some spurious results.

A licence may be a bit too radical but certainly a compulsory basic food hygiene certificate could be workable.

Regards,

Tony

[Lanser]

30 years ago I was just out of school and started working for my local Butcher he had a reputation as high class selling good quality meat from an immaculate shop.

In the shop itself there was no sink nor washing facilities just a bucket of heavily bleached water and lamb cloths, out back we used to eat drink and smoke while we worked.
Our little slaughterhouse was visted once a week by a vet primarily to have a drink with the boss but also to stamp the carcases killed the day before.
We weren't sick and back then there were no e.coli outbreaks or salmonella scares despite selling cooked ham and home cooked pies/pasties alongside poultry being drawn to order in the shop.
Sometimes when I look around at the rules and regs we have to jump through I wonder if we havent just made things worse by being hyperclean and panicing about the slightest chance of cross-contamination and ruined our aquired immunity to such things.

[Charles.C]

Dear lanser,

It’s true that some experts consider that achieving an “over-hygienic” process environment can promote opportunist pathogens, just like staph aureus on mis-handled cooked products (usual background flora removed).

However I suspect that a perusal of the incident statistics of the time would suggest you were one of the lucky ones. Maybe your pies at that time were consumed more rapidly than others.

If anyone wishes to read the fascinating background to many varieties of food “disasters” dating back to the 1960s, mostly resulting from inadequate processing / hygiene, can suggest the classic book (1st ed.1953) “Food Poisoning and Food Hygiene” by the late Betty C. Hobbs / Richard J.Gilbert.

Rgds / Charles.C

[Tony-C]

30 years ago I was just out of school and started working for my local Butcher he had a reputation as high class selling good quality meat from an immaculate shop.

In the shop itself there was no sink nor washing facilities just a bucket of heavily bleached water and lamb cloths, out back we used to eat drink and smoke while we worked.
Our little slaughterhouse was visted once a week by a vet primarily to have a drink with the boss but also to stamp the carcases killed the day before.
We weren't sick and back then there were no e.coli outbreaks or salmonella scares despite selling cooked ham and home cooked pies/pasties alongside poultry being drawn to order in the shop.
Sometimes when I look around at the rules and regs we have to jump through I wonder if we havent just made things worse by being hyperclean and panicing about the slightest chance of cross-contamination and ruined our aquired immunity to such things.

I understand your comments, however, these people probably had the same attitude and would disagree with you now:

UK largest E.coli outbreak

WHO Report E.coli Outbreak 1996

Regards,

Tony

[Lanser]

My experience of butchers at that time was by no means unique it was the norm, I moved on to several different shops throughout East Anglia before I saw the light and all operated in much the same manner not deliberately unsafe but more through ignorance and the "thats the way we've always done it" mentality.

That outbreak was more than 15 years after I first started work and 6 years after the 1990 Food Safety Act we had already smartened up our act and started taking food safety seriously.

[GMO]

I think it's very easy to adopt that "it was ok in my day" mentality. I remember as a child having bouts of sickness and my parents treating it as though it was normal and part of being a child. To some extent a lot of those things are viral and passed around easily in schools but likewise we are probably more inclined to see our GP about a "tummy bug" than we were in the 70s or 80s (for me) or somewhat longer ago for all you oldies

It was also ok in our day not to have seatbelts in the backs of cars. Now child seats are compulsary. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. Likewise in the 60's and earlier, it was less common for everyone to have fridges and freezers so food was more likely to be bought and eaten on the same day. As soon as food is stored, you then have more time for any contaminants to grow.

I understand some rules seem OTT. I'm not sure the Parma Ham processing would get approval from your average UK EHO however, I think the rules are sensible, easy to follow if explained and I don't think there's an excuse to be honest.

[Tony-C]

I understand some rules seem OTT.

I am sure they do seem OTT. A lot of the Retailers in the UK take the approach of having separate counters and staff for raw and cooked. Obviously this is less practical in a small butchers shop but measures need to be in place to prevent cross-contamination or they may not be around in a few years time.

Regards,

Tony