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#1 beatlevi

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 06:31 PM

Hi , is someone get informations about cooking time temperature to destroy pathogens in bakery products ?

I'm searching infos to validate my CCP for cooking pizza crust

Thanks


AL



#2 Charles.C

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 08:41 AM

Dear beatlevi,

Welcome to the forum ! :welcome:

Some further details on yr product / process might help, eg yr current CCP - critical limits.

You may also be faced with a (local) regulatory situation like the USA FDA Food Code.

Rgds / Charles.C


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


#3 beatlevi

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 01:58 PM

I put my cooking temperature as a CCP. My target temperature is 90°C (for pre-cooked pizza crust). But I needed infos about time to kill Listeria mono , Salmonella or other pathogens at this temperatue. Is someone have some references to validate my CCP.

Thanks for your help.


AL



#4 Charles.C

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 05:32 PM

Dear beatlevi,

But I needed infos about time to kill Listeria mono , Salmonella or other pathogens at this temperatue


The typical ec requirement for listeria monocytogenes is 70degC/2min for 6D reduction. Salmonella (US focus) will be even more reduced I expect. From memory, the justification is in this detailed L.mono table somewhere in the linked manuals -

http://seafoodhaccp....anuals_pdf.html
(ADDED - see Appendix 4 of purple book for table L.mono..)

Regarding the choice of CCP, this topic for bakeries has come up before and seems to hv caused some interesting debate but no absolute conclusion (maybe as usual it depends where you are and what you are doing). I could see the potential logic in both viewpoints although I think many people would just make it a CCP on the usual “destroy all pathogens here” logic.

The discussion is here - ( there may be others)

http://www.ifsqn.com...?showtopic=6265

I hv done some further scanning and also noticed divergent viewpoints, either explicit or implicit.
For examples of explicit non-CCP can try this link –

http://www.foodsafet.......35&sub=sub1

And for implicit non-CCP, try the pizza examples in this huge retail, recipe list of SOPs –

http://www.nfsmi.org...mlzTWdyPXRydWU=

In contrast, here is a general, regulatory list seemingly grabbing almost everything as pro CCP -

http://www.webstaura...oint_guide.html

Any more opinions ? :biggrin:

Rgds / Charles.C

Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


#5 beatlevi

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 10:01 PM

Thanks Charles C.

So for my part Cooking is not really a CCP in bakery, if read exactly what I saw in your infos.
I presume that if cooking it's not a CCP in my bakery process. I have to make the receiving step for ingredients as a CCP...



#6 Kamwenji Njuma

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 01:48 PM

Dear Charles,

Thanks,these manuals are useful and contains all HACCP principles.



#7 Prasad Mathai

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Posted 11 March 2010 - 11:48 AM

Any standard literature available to substantiate that heating to a particular temaperature will eliminate the risk of pathogens?



#8 Charles.C

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Posted 11 March 2010 - 02:19 PM

Dear Prasad Mathai,

I think yr query is effectively asking regarding the basis for presenting tables of pathogen time/temp destruction data based on literature D values (temp/time to achieve a decimal reduction, ie 1log). I expect there are refs for L.monocytogenes, Salmonella in the links giving the tables referred in my earlier post. An initial averaging step (based on lit.evaluation) is normally required to obtain parameters like "z" since the individual values vary with food matrix.

The raw input data is obtained from hundreds of papers on time/temp killing experiments done under controlled conditions. The results demonstrate that some micro-organisms are much easier to (heat) kill than others (eg Salmonella cf L.monocytogenes.)

The basic details / formulae for this are usually given in most food microbiology textbooks.

added - if interested, can try these links -

http://www.amif.org/...26870/pid/26870
(link in last ref. is nice also)

http://www.fda.gov/I...s/ucm070835.htm

http://wyndmoor.arse...e/2001\7043.pdf


Rgds / Charles.C


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


#9 Prasad Mathai

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 07:35 AM

Dear Prasad Mathai,

I think yr query is effectively asking regarding the basis for presenting tables of pathogen time/temp destruction data based on literature D values (temp/time to achieve a decimal reduction, ie 1log). I expect there are refs for L.monocytogenes, Salmonella in the links giving the tables referred in my earlier post. An initial averaging step (based on lit.evaluation) is normally required to obtain parameters like "z" since the individual values vary with food matrix.

The raw input data is obtained from hundreds of papers on time/temp killing experiments done under controlled conditions. The results demonstrate that some micro-organisms are much easier to (heat) kill than others (eg Salmonella cf L.monocytogenes.)

The basic details / formulae for this are usually given in most food microbiology textbooks.

added - if interested, can try these links -

http://www.amif.org/...26870/pid/26870
(link in last ref. is nice also)

http://www.fda.gov/I...s/ucm070835.htm

http://wyndmoor.arse...e/2001\7043.pdf


Rgds / Charles.C


Dear Cahrles,

Thanks. The links were useful, especially the excel template.

Some auditors ask for equipment validation. I have calibrated temperature probes. But they want the entire equipment to be validated. How it can be use. Use live culture? :headhurts:

#10 Charles.C

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 03:24 PM

Dear Prasad Mathai,

It rather depends what you mean by the “equipment” and if a regulatory aspect is involved.

If you mean the auditor requirement is to demonstrate that yr equipment/cooking step is sufficient to “eliminate” pathogenic organisms, specific culture inputs are not routinely necessary IMEX.

As an example only, for many seafood processors, a typical target organism is L.monocytogenes which is used in many official standards (but not all) as the most heat resistant pathogenic species commonly found in that matrix. One validation route is to determine the typical level of the species in the raw material (internal or external lab), acquire some time-temperature(core) curves for representative products during the cooking step (product preferably at the large size end for a worst case scenario) and repeat the lab exercise to measure the pathogen level in finished product (many factories do the last step periodically anyway as a continuing “verification/validation”). There are commercial “chip” packages available for temp./time monitoring which can be inserted in the product and self-store the data if not possible to make continuous measurements with usual connections.

Assuming you hv the T/time data, it can be used in several ways.
Again for example only, L.mono. requires 2mins/70degC to encounter a 6D reduction (from the tables referenced earlier) which is usually considered sufficient for seafood, (eg if the typical level in raw material is <10cfu/g, the final result shud be <10(exp-5)/g, ie undetectable by routine procedures.) Some people simply confirm that the time above 70degC is >2mins. Others do a full integration of the area below the curve to measure the D value at 70degC and confirm >= 6log. Threre are some fairly quick (somewhat depending on yr residence time) textbook manual approx. procedures for this (similar to those used in canning theory) as well as software like the excel sheet mentioned above.

Rgds / Charles.C


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


#11 Biss

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 07:25 AM

Dear Prasad,

seems you are having lot of customer audits !!

Biss


Biss

#12 pablo coronel

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 10:57 AM

I do not know how is the legal procedure in India, but hiring a consultant/process authority may help you a lot.

Dear Cahrles,

Thanks. The links were useful, especially the excel template.

Some auditors ask for equipment validation. I have calibrated temperature probes. But they want the entire equipment to be validated. How it can be use. Use live culture? :headhurts:






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