14 replies to this topic

[Shajir Bran]

Hi All,

The cooking temperature is standard(say 75 Degree) and this is set to make sure the surviellance of micoorganisms in the food is stopped. In HACCP it is considered as one of the CCP as well. What is happening to this microbes if the guest is asking for a steak or any meat 'RARE COOK'..Some place I have seen RAW meat is served (like kibbehniyyeh-an arabic dish-minced lamb with olive oil or suhsi varieties).

Can any one explain me Why those customers who eat raw meat is not having any poisoning?


Regards,

Shajir

[Hongyun]

Hi All,

The cooking temperature is standard(say 75 Degree) and this is set to make sure the surviellance of micoorganisms in the food is stopped. In HACCP it is considered as one of the CCP as well. What is happening to this microbes if the guest is asking for a steak or any meat 'RARE COOK'..Some place I have seen RAW meat is served (like kibbehniyyeh-an arabic dish-minced lamb with olive oil or suhsi varieties).

Can any one explain me Why those customers who eat raw meat is not having any poisoning?


Regards,

Shajir

Interesting topic. I would like to know the answers to that as well. Like the Japanese, they enjoyed eating raw fish, but there are not many food poisonings associated with it (i think).

One possible reason I could think of is that the meat is kept very fresh and free from contamination. As the inside of the meat is still sterile after just killing the fish, maybe it is possible to halt spoilage by retarding it in fridge? Provided the animal is not sick in the first place, I would say it is relatively safe to eat them fresh and raw? Maybe the beef works in the same theory?

[GMO]

Not sure either but my "gut feel" if you excuse the pun is that if the animal is slaughtered and butchered in such a way to minimise cross contamination from the gastrointestinal tract to the meat, you will limit the risk. Also I would suspect that and contamination is likely to be on the surface so rare or black and blue steak will help reduce loading a bit (and sushi in japan is probably made with much fresher fish than elsewhere so the pathogens don't have much chance to multiply). Likewise the FSA in the UK does not recommend serving burgers rare (as I believe is common practice in France and the US) due to the contamination risk of taking the contaminated surface of the meat and moving it to the centre.

That all said, the risk is there. In the UK it's recommended that you don't eat raw or rare foods during pregnancy for example and I've certainly had food poisoning from beef carpaccio before. Frankly though, well done steak mings. Now I'm no longer pregnant I'd rather live on the edge and have a rare steak, runny fried eggs, sushi etc.. Yum!

[Charles.C]

Dear Shajir Bran,

In the case of rare steak, I think this has come up before here and has, predictably, been closely studied by the Americans. From memory, the textbook answer is similar GMO - the outside is effectively seared to "eliminate" potential nasties. The inner is assumed pathogen free. I forget how they validate the latter part. Unfortunately, the same logic doesn't work for hamburgers .

http://news.bbc.co.u...lth/3743657.stm

ADDED - But there may be caveats to the above, see this article and especially its lower comments -

http://corduroyorange.com/?p=288

Not a consumer myself but Sushi and Sashimi seems to be a much more contentious situation particularly where the seafood is raw (maybe and yes respectively).
Raw fish skin IMEX is typically not sterile and predictably exhibits natural marine pathogens such as certain vibrio species although the muscle itself may be sterile.
The EC / USA apparently have a compulsory initial freezing step regarding parasites but this would not particularly relate to micro. features. Other countries, eg Japan, may have their own opinions, eg rely on the source / processing method / experience, simply like to gamble.

http://efoodalert.bl...or-sashimi.html
(and see the comment section below article)

http://www.todaysmod...sine/230383.htm

http://healthmad.com...really-healthy/

 safe production sushi, sashimi.PDF   185.78KB   39 downloads

Rgds / Charles.C

[Shajir Bran]

Hello Mr.Charles,

It was really informative....i could learn alot.................i really liked

@ others,

thanx everyone

Dear Shajir Bran,

In the case of rare steak, I think this has come up before here and has, predictably, been closely studied by the Americans. From memory, the textbook answer is similar GMO - the outside is effectively seared to "eliminate" potential nasties. The inner is assumed pathogen free. I forget how they validate the latter part. Unfortunately, the same logic doesn't work for hamburgers .

http://news.bbc.co.u...lth/3743657.stm

ADDED - But there may be caveats to the above, see this article and especially its lower comments -

http://corduroyorange.com/?p=288

Not a consumer myself but Sushi and Sashimi seems to be a much more contentious situation particularly where the seafood is raw (maybe and yes respectively).
Raw fish skin IMEX is typically not sterile and predictably exhibits natural marine pathogens such as certain vibrio species although the muscle itself may be sterile.
The EC / USA apparently have a compulsory initial freezing step regarding parasites but this would not particularly relate to micro. features. Other countries, eg Japan, may have their own opinions, eg rely on the source / processing method / experience, simply like to gamble.

http://efoodalert.bl...or-sashimi.html
(and see the comment section below article)

http://www.todaysmod...sine/230383.htm

http://healthmad.com...really-healthy/

 safe production sushi, sashimi.PDF   185.78KB   39 downloads

Rgds / Charles.C

[Mike Green]

Hi All,

The cooking temperature is standard(say 75 Degree) and this is set to make sure the surviellance of micoorganisms in the food is stopped. In HACCP it is considered as one of the CCP as well. What is happening to this microbes if the guest is asking for a steak or any meat 'RARE COOK'..Some place I have seen RAW meat is served (like kibbehniyyeh-an arabic dish-minced lamb with olive oil or suhsi varieties).

Can any one explain me Why those customers who eat raw meat is not having any poisoning?


Regards,

Shajir

A lot of UK sushi contains fish that has been cooked-which kind of reduces the problem-but defeats the object!

With the proper stuff it is most certainly a fish quality and handling quality issue

I believe when the fish is to be eaten raw it is recommended that it is eviscerated immediately when caught toreduce the amount of bacteria and parasites from intestines and organs from contaminating the flesh and quickly commercially frozen(at sea) to something like -56 degrees c -which apparently takes care of any parasites that remain.-then there is the action of salt/soy, alcohol and vinegar in the dish which i guess will reduce bacterial multiplication?-(not to mention that wasabe stuff- I doubt there is any research but that stuff has got to do something to bacteria!!! )

Maybe a bigger issue is the mercury content of some of the fish !!

Regards
Mike

[Charles.C]

Dear Mike,

-56degC under full load ? Seems amazingly low.

Must have been in the North Sea in winter.

Our plate freezers (made in EC) are straining to get -40 to -45. Bit better at the compressor end of course. I suppose Japanese ones might do better again .

ADDED - START

After some googling, you were spot on ( ) from a Japanese perspective. Seems they, predictably, developed a "supercold" freezing method. Nice description here -
http://www.sashimigr...r_Freezing.html

In contrast, seems USA could not follow suit -
 flash frozen.png   88.41KB   9 downloads

however their (FDA Food code) minimum requirements (parasite oriented) are attainable by conventional systems -
 freezing raw fish for RTE.png   29.56KB   9 downloads

ADDED - END

Actually i got the impression from some of the other links I saw that in some locations a significant amount of sashimi is not frozen at all but only guessing. i am also no tuna expert but maybe like for cod, it is known that certain catch areas are virtually free of parasites, others the opposite.
Sashimi also apparently extends to items like raw squid, octopus etc. I guess everything is eaten somewhere.

Rgds / Charles.C

added - after little more digging, does seem that unfrozen is the purist objective -

 sashimi Japanese.png   458.97KB   6 downloads

however this intense forum discussion regarding salmon illustrates the level of feelings and, often, uncertainty -
http://forums.egulle...salmon-sashimi/

The mercury risk is a long running issue and is clearly not going away, if anything the opposite -

http://www.naturalne...hi_mercury.html
http://www.independe...na-1970301.html
 mercury in tuna - Biol. Lett.-2010-Lowenstein-rsbl.2010.0156.pdf   203.17KB   10 downloads

[Mike Green]

Dear Mike,

-56degC under full load ? Seems amazingly low.

Must have been in the North Sea in winter.

Our plate freezers (made in EC) are straining to get -40 to -45. Bit better at the compressor end of course. I suppose Japanese ones might do better again .

ADDED - START

After some googling, you were spot on ( ) from a Japanese perspective. Seems they, predictably, developed a "supercold" freezing method. Nice description here -
http://www.sashimigr...r_Freezing.html

In contrast, seems USA could not follow suit -
 flash frozen.png   88.41KB   9 downloads

however their (FDA Food code) minimum requirements (parasite oriented) are attainable by conventional systems -
 freezing raw fish for RTE.png   29.56KB   9 downloads

ADDED - END

Actually i got the impression from some of the other links I saw that in some locations a significant amount of sashimi is not frozen at all but only guessing. i am also no tuna expert but maybe like for cod, it is known that certain catch areas are virtually free of parasites, others the opposite.
Sashimi also apparently extends to items like raw squid, octopus etc. I guess everything is eaten somewhere.

Rgds / Charles.C

added - after little more digging, does seem that unfrozen is the purist objective -

 sashimi Japanese.png   458.97KB   6 downloads

however this intense forum discussion regarding salmon illustrates the level of feelings and, often, uncertainty -
http://forums.egulle...salmon-sashimi/

The mercury risk is a long running issue and is clearly not going away, if anything the opposite -

http://www.naturalne...hi_mercury.html
http://www.independe...na-1970301.html
 mercury in tuna - Biol. Lett.-2010-Lowenstein-rsbl.2010.0156.pdf   203.17KB   10 downloads

CharlesC.

I think you truly are the king of food safety research!- talk about leaving no stone unturned -some really nice links there

After some googling, you were spot on

I live in the north east-and surf in the north sea-so i'm pretty tuned in to cold temps!


I think some of the 'raw fish is safe' stuff makes a bit of sense and I have bought sushimi before- (just the supermarket variety)-but after 30 yrs in the food safety game-I couldn't bring myself to eat it raw- so I cooked it a bit then ate it....and it tasted just like fish!!!

Regards

Mike

[Shajir Bran]

Hello again,

Just a thought,

In case of rare if we consider INNER IS SAFE and Microbial action will be more on the surface, so why Cooking temperature should be monitored at the core???
(it is told that inner core temperature should be >75 degree)
In this case we can use infra red thermometer to check the cooking temperature which will give you the surface temperature???

Regards,

Shajir

Hello Mr.Charles,

It was really informative....i could learn alot.................i really liked

@ others,

thanx everyone

[Mike Green]

Hello again,

Just a thought,

In case of rare if we consider INNER IS SAFE and Microbial action will be more on the surface, so why Cooking temperature should be monitored at the core???
(it is told that inner core temperature should be >75 degree)
In this case we can use infra red thermometer to check the cooking temperature which will give you the surface temperature???

Regards,

Shajir

Hi Shajir

I am assuming we are still only talking about rare steak?-if so then you can really judge the surface temperature by its effects on the meat(colour change) I don't believe there would be a significant advantage to formally measure the surface temp-as it would potentially be different across the whole surface area-colour change is more reliable

Some chefs do use core temp to determine level of "doneness"(!)-most just press it to feel how firm the flesh is

Temp-wise- from memory(core temps)
52 degrees celsius-rare
55 medium rare
60 medium
72 well done

Regards

Mike

[Simon]

What about smoked salmon, I like eating it but am always a bit concerned about eating anything raw...or does smoked mean cooked?

[Mike Green]

What about smoked salmon, I like eating it but am always a bit concerned about eating anything raw...or does smoked mean cooked?

Hi Simon

Hot smoked or cold smoked?

Cold smoked fish is 'preserved' not cooked- eg 20hrs in a smoker at 30 degrees(ish) celsius- as well as the smoke it can be frozen first to kill parasites and has a brine wash or soak ... L. mono is still a possibility.... IMO not really recommended for those with a compromised immune system but the preservation technique gives it a nice long shelf life (and a nice taste!)

Hot smoked fish is cooked (reaches up to 80 degrees c) therefore RTE and safe if handled and stored correctly-after cooking-but as rte has shorter shelf life


Regards

Mike

[redchariot]

Hello again,

Just a thought,

In case of rare if we consider INNER IS SAFE and Microbial action will be more on the surface, so why Cooking temperature should be monitored at the core???
(it is told that inner core temperature should be >75 degree)
In this case we can use infra red thermometer to check the cooking temperature which will give you the surface temperature???

Regards,

Shajir

I think that the main thing about inner temperature is in the case of minced or comminuted meats e.g. burgers and sausages.

Take for example a burger, it is made up of minced meat; therefore cuts of meat both inside and outside are mixed up together and as a result the whole burger has to be properly cooked while a steak is a whole cut of meat and it is only critical to ensure that the outside surfaces are well cooked (but a lot of people are still put off by a red blood interior)

[GMO]

I think that the main thing about inner temperature is in the case of minced or comminuted meats e.g. burgers and sausages.

Take for example a burger, it is made up of minced meat; therefore cuts of meat both inside and outside are mixed up together and as a result the whole burger has to be properly cooked while a steak is a whole cut of meat and it is only critical to ensure that the outside surfaces are well cooked (but a lot of people are still put off by a red blood interior)

Also in the UK anyway vulnerable groups (e.g. pregnant women) are told not to eat rare meat as there is still a small risk. With other meats, e.g. poultry I assume the pathogens penetrate the muscle or there isn't the same muscle mass as there is in beef? Maybe a meat specialist can enlighten me?

[Mike Green]

Also in the UK anyway vulnerable groups (e.g. pregnant women) are told not to eat rare meat as there is still a small risk. With other meats, e.g. poultry I assume the pathogens penetrate the muscle or there isn't the same muscle mass as there is in beef? Maybe a meat specialist can enlighten me?

Hi GMO

I understand that salmonella have the ability to adhere to and invade cells-so they are not just present in the gut and passed onto the surface of the meat (during processing) but theoretically they could be present throughout the muscle tissue
I'm not clever enough to explain how they do it though!

Regards

Mike