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mind over matter

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 08:08 AM

What is the training requirement of ISO 22000 for internal auditors? Would it suffice if trainings be given internally by QA team, not by external party?



Tony-C

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 08:41 AM

What is the training requirement of ISO 22000 for internal auditors? Would it suffice if trainings be given internally by QA team, not by external party?



This will depend on whether you assess the QA Team is competent to train your internal auditors and the training is adequate and then you assess the training as effective and that the auditors are competent.

ISO 22000 Clause 6.2.2 Competence, awareness and training
identify the necessary competencies for personnel .....
provide training ........
ensure that personnel responsible for monitoring .........are trained
evaluate the implementation and the effectiveness of the above
ensure that the personnel are aware of the relevance and importance of their individual activities........
maintain appropriate records of training....

ISO 9001 Auditing Practices Group Guidance on: Auditing the effectiveness of the internal audit
There should be evidence that the organization:
- has identified the competence requirements for its internal auditors,
- has provided appropriate training
- has in place a process for monitoring the performance of its internal auditors and audit teams
- includes personnel on its audit teams that have appropriate sector specific knowledge (so that they are able to identify where the likelihood that a deviation in a particular process or activity could lead to a significant consequence for product quality)

When you are audited the auditor will want see if your internal auditors understand the inherent risk to the reliance that can be placed on the outcome of the audit process, if they:
- fail to consider something which is material to the outcome of the audit,
- select an inappropriate sampling regime,
- weight the evidence collected inappropriately, or
- deviate from the audit plan and internal audit procedures.

Regards,

Tony

Edited by Tony-C, 06 January 2011 - 08:42 AM.


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tsmith7858

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 03:34 PM


This will depend on whether you assess the QA Team is competent to train your internal auditors and the training is adequate and then you assess the training as effective and that the auditors are competent.

ISO 22000 Clause 6.2.2 Competence, awareness and training
identify the necessary competencies for personnel .....
provide training ........
ensure that personnel responsible for monitoring .........are trained
evaluate the implementation and the effectiveness of the above
ensure that the personnel are aware of the relevance and importance of their individual activities........
maintain appropriate records of training....

ISO 9001 Auditing Practices Group Guidance on: Auditing the effectiveness of the internal audit
There should be evidence that the organization:
- has identified the competence requirements for its internal auditors,
- has provided appropriate training
- has in place a process for monitoring the performance of its internal auditors and audit teams
- includes personnel on its audit teams that have appropriate sector specific knowledge (so that they are able to identify where the likelihood that a deviation in a particular process or activity could lead to a significant consequence for product quality)

When you are audited the auditor will want see if your internal auditors understand the inherent risk to the reliance that can be placed on the outcome of the audit process, if they:
- fail to consider something which is material to the outcome of the audit,
- select an inappropriate sampling regime,
- weight the evidence collected inappropriately, or
- deviate from the audit plan and internal audit procedures.

Regards,

Tony


I agree with Tony. If you have the right people to do the training it is okay to train in house. I do the internal auditor training for my company. I have been through several auditing courses and have had the experience of auditing as well as being audited over the last 10-15 years. It does not make me an expert but I was able to put together training using videos and information from courses.

We also have our internal auditors "shadow" external auditors whenever possible to gain experience and knowledge from them. It is a good way to get some "free" training if an external auditor is willing. It also doesn't hurt to boost the ego of your external auditor by telling them you feel their knowledge is so good it should be shared! :rolleyes:


Tony-C

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 04:54 PM

It also doesn't hurt to boost the ego of your external auditor by telling them you feel their knowledge is so good it should be shared! :rolleyes:


:roflmao: I guess a fair few do like their ego's rubbed.


Zeeshan

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 10:05 AM

What is the training requirement of ISO 22000 for internal auditors? Would it suffice if trainings be given internally by QA team, not by external party?



Just adding my related experience to the detailed replies of Tony and tsmith. During last BRC External Audit, the Auditor was reviewing the training plan that included the in-house awareness session on BRC Food Standard. I was the trainer of that session. The auditor asked me how did the organizaition ensure that I was competent enough to conduct that inhouse session. Fortuntely we had a record of my training on the subject by an authentic external training provider. Combination of my training career history, my tranining evalution records and certificate on relevant subject satisfy him completely.

Besides above, IMHO, Internal Auditing is one of the most critical area in Magagement System. Great competency of internal auditors is required to make it a worthwhile tool for verification. So I recommend you to make proper training materials (presentation, assessment sheets, group activities etc) and get all that reviewed by a competent / experienced personnel preferably a trained/experienced internal or external auditor. You can share your draft material here on IFSQN for review. People here can give you valuable suggestions for improvement. Moreover (although not confirmed) there may be some material availble on IFSQN.

Regards:
M.Zeeshan


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mind over matter

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 06:26 AM

You can share your draft material here on IFSQN for review. People here can give you valuable suggestions for improvement. Moreover (although not confirmed) there may be some material availble on IFSQN.

Thank you for offering your help. I admired your expertise and much your willingness to help. I will be posting the Food Safety manual that we created. I hope you or other IFSQN members would be able to review if it conforms to ISO 22000. There are sections created by Ka Pilo, one of the members of our QA team -specifically from clause 7 to 8. I actually didn’t understand the details of some clauses (especially on assessing the food safety hazard and SIPOC model part) he contributed. He wasn’t able to explain how it works so I thought I would ask your help to discuss about it , or if you have other methods which are easier to understand that you can share.









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