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faisal rafique

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Posted 14 March 2011 - 10:12 AM

Dear all,
I was a bad day for food safety personals, is it a senior management commitment?

Faisal Rafique



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Posted 15 March 2011 - 10:52 AM

No. No way should a dog be on site, not even in the car park IMO but you know that.

When I used to work for a major food manufacturing company with sites worldwide, they used to have in their policy "cats shall not be used as a method of pest control" I laughed at that thinking "no-one would think it would be acceptable to bring a cat on site surely?" but I guess dogs are ok?! Well cats make me sneeze anyway...



Do not laugh at this. My old boss lived close to the plant and he tried to convince me that his two cats are the perfect mice solution (we had a lot of mice). Goes without saying that I left the company without them bein certified.


D-D

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 11:31 AM

By the way, some boss hire QA/QC personnel only for dealing with the certification/audits/complaints etc., but not truely for improving quality(Just my personal views)


This is the hat I wear. We are nowhere near certification.

It is very frustrating and we also had the walkies incident (before my time). Other things: we have had people washing their cars on site (presumably with fire fighting equipment or the pressure washer used to clean some equipment vessels) and recently I discovered a windscreen repair van working on a contractor's vehicle on site. That was the morning of a customer audit and associating a food ingredients factory with glass shattered into a million pieces wasn't really the first impression I wanted to make. I sent a memo out within minutes with the instruction that any such vehicle repairs had to be done off site but of course most people couldn't understand there was a problem.

It's a laugh isn't it? Now where's my CV...?


esquef

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 12:43 PM

I sure hope that your boss' dog doesn't shed as much as my beloved English Setter! Posted Image

Seriously though, the least I would do is document the incident and include the fact that you "suggested" to your boss that having a canine on the site was not in line with good manufacturing practices. At least your posterior would be covered in the event of a complaint.

Regards,
esquef



D-D

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 03:21 PM

Seriously though, the least I would do is document the incident and include the fact that you "suggested" to your boss that having a canine on the site was not in line with good manufacturing practices. At least your posterior would be covered in the event of a complaint.


I have an Outlook folder called TIWSBD (This Is What Should Be Done) where I log the most critical things I raise. It is not my decision to act on them (especially if there is money to be spent to fix something) but there you go...


MOOCHIE

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 07:16 PM

This is the hat I wear. We are nowhere near certification.

It is very frustrating and we also had the walkies incident (before my time). Other things: we have had people washing their cars on site (presumably with fire fighting equipment or the pressure washer used to clean some equipment vessels) and recently I discovered a windscreen repair van working on a contractor's vehicle on site. That was the morning of a customer audit and associating a food ingredients factory with glass shattered into a million pieces wasn't really the first impression I wanted to make. I sent a memo out within minutes with the instruction that any such vehicle repairs had to be done off site but of course most people couldn't understand there was a problem.

It's a laugh isn't it? Now where's my CV...?



At a place i used to work many moons ago the hygiene team used to wash their cars too, only they weren't clever enough not to do it near the CCTV.
Also we used to use cats as a rat catcher, when there got too many they used to call in the cat rescue center.
I've come to the conclusion that i can't change the mind set of my boss or people like him, so as long as i feel that i've done my job and documented any wrong doing my conscience is clear, i might not like it and i can bitch and moan about it till the cows come home. Thats life!!!!!

moochie x


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Posted 15 March 2011 - 07:42 PM

This has got me so mad that i have to get other like minded peoples thoughts, or is it just me being over the top.
I'm a QA Manager in a small potato packing factory, we don't grow the potatoes we bring them in, wash them, grade them, package them and despatch.

The boss brought his wife for a visit today, nothing wrong with that i hear you say, but she didn't come alone, she brought the family dog with her, and thought nothing of taking it for a walk around the building inside and out. I voiced my concerns to my boss (whose wife, dog and business it is) he didn't think there was a problem, tried again to explain how wrong it was, his response 'my dog, my factory'.

Believe it or not we are BRC accredited, mainly down to my hard work (if i do say so myself) most of the time i feel i'm here just to pacify the customers and to get the blame when it all goes wrong

So my question is am i being over zealous with regards to the mut, i have a dog myself but wouldn't dream of bringing him to work


Hi Moochie,
You were absolutely correct, I believe. I had the same thing happen to me a couple of years ago. I am a QA Manager in my plant also. Not a very friendly job, if I say so myself. Sometimes you do think "What's the use and I'm doing this alone!" I agree! The Assistant Plant manager decided to bring a dog into our plant a couple of years ago. I was only the QA Tech at that time. I couldn't believe my eyes and the worse thing was the QA Manager at that time was afraid to voice her opinion. We were just starting to get our HACCP Certification so alot of the employees didn't think it was a big deal. I went over to her and told her to take the dog out! She was mad at me for a while and I took a good bit of ribbing over the whole thing, but look who's the QA Manager now! They wouldn't dare bring an animal in here now! I wouldn't let the owner or his wife attempt to bring one in either. We are HACCP certified and I take my job very seriously, if not for my company then for the consumers who have to eat our product. I have a sweet little pup too, but there's no way I would bring her here. It's sad when the boss (owner) doesn;t even have enough respect for his customers to not let such a thing happen! I feel bad for you and I know where you are coming from. GOOD LUCK and God Bless!


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Posted 18 March 2011 - 08:52 PM

HI Moochie,

Purely for the sake of argument ( I understand that we need to avoid pets/ risks in the food manufacturing chain as a matter of principal); but since your process only deals with preparation of the potatoes, the actual control points for mitigating food safety risks would be furthter down the supply chain, e.g. washing, peeling and ccoking, preserving etc. If so, the presence of your ownetrs dog should not have generated the level of concern you had.

Is it possible, that your owner is not acting out of arrogance , but just evaluates the risk as not of high significance.

Just a thought, to stirr things up.. :)

Cheers,





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MOOCHIE

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 06:20 PM

HI Moochie,

Purely for the sake of argument ( I understand that we need to avoid pets/ risks in the food manufacturing chain as a matter of principal); but since your process only deals with preparation of the potatoes, the actual control points for mitigating food safety risks would be furthter down the supply chain, e.g. washing, peeling and ccoking, preserving etc. If so, the presence of your ownetrs dog should not have generated the level of concern you had.

Is it possible, that your owner is not acting out of arrogance , but just evaluates the risk as not of high significance.

Just a thought, to stirr things up.. :)

Cheers,





Unlike my boss i have to asess all the potential risks, we sell ready washed potatoes direct to the consumer, and even though it says wash before use on the labelling we all know that very rarely happens. So we have washed potatoes going straight into the oven, the same washed potatoes that my bosses dog had cocked his leg against only the day before. Yes the cooking would probably kill the bacteria, but would you want your child eating a jacket potato covered in dog pee, maybe you don't think that as not of high significance?


SriramB

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 10:11 PM

Unlike my boss i have to asess all the potential risks,

Yes the cooking would probably kill the bacteria, but would you want your child eating a jacket potato covered in dog pee, maybe you don't think that as not of high significance?



Dear Moochie,

As I mentioned in the earlier post, I am only commenting, as I think you have raised a very valid point for "Standards' versus 'Experience' versus "perceptions' etc. At the outset, any PRP I have for a food manufacturing site would clearly define access restrictions and animals would be certainly restricted.

But, I would also reiterate that the standard provides us with enough tools to document a food safety plan that can defend itself, (i.e. the boss would find enough justifications in it for any restrictions etc...)

1. From your Boss's point of view, the intended use of your product allows for "washing" and "cooking". it is great that you consider an eventuality where the customer may not follow this recommendation. But, if we look at risks beyond the scope of our plan (i.e. for the products with an intended use), then we may end up with solutions which sound great to society, but may not be good business for the shareholders.

For e.g. with caffienated drinks , some companies advise consumption volumes to be limited to 500ml, but if a consumer drinks excessive amounts , the food safety plan cannot be faulted for not having put a control measure in place to mitigate that.

2. Secondly, (once again please excuse me, I am just seeking clarifiaction from the forum, using your excellent example), you started me thinking on whether dog pee on a potato could pose a risk for my child.

Fickle as Internet sourced information can be, I find that Dog urine odes contain "Dog urine contains urea, creatine, uric acid, carbohydrates, enzymes, fatty acids, hormones, sodium, potassium, chloride, magnesium, calcium and ammonia.Read more: What Is the Chemical Composition of Dog Urine? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/...l#ixzz1HBCRWhkL"

Further more, you can apparently drink ones own or even a dogs urine, (if you were about to die of dehydaration), without any harm caused.

So using the Codex Risk matrix, this hazard would not pose as a significant hazard.


3. But, from common sense and perceptional view points I would certainly avoid dogs visiting the factory. In a previous post a suggested control measure was a hermetically sealed walkway for dogs.

Now , if the risk posed was high, then the owner could still satisfy his whim, provided he invested in a walkway. But , if not the risk does not justify the additional investment by the company, which obviously is of no profit to the saherholders. (in such case the owner could bring his dog in...)

----
I do believe that as Food safety managers we need to recommend the most profitable food safety solutions, and the standard provides us the tools to do just that, so we do not have to call upon the 'good nature' of the management teams to support the food safety plans.

Cheers

SriramB





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Tony-C

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 04:09 AM

"cats shall not be used as a method of pest control" I laughed at that thinking "no-one would think it would be acceptable to bring a cat on site surely?"


I believe it was a common practice in Eastern Europe.


Tony-C

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 04:23 AM

his response 'my dog, my factory'.


Is he related to William Tudor?


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Posted 21 March 2011 - 10:13 AM


This post has gone off on a very bizarre direction.

1. In a food environment you do not want animals (dogs, cats, mice, pigeons, wildebeest or whatever) in the facility. Black and white. Easy.

2. Urine is sterile but you do not want it on your food whether it gets cooked or not.

3. There is no health benefit in drinking urine whether it's your own, fido's or Madonna's.

4. In a survival situation you do not drink urine even if you have nothing else to drink. I can help you make a solar still or gypsy well if it helps...



MOOCHIE

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 12:23 PM

This post has gone off on a very bizarre direction.

1. In a food environment you do not want animals (dogs, cats, mice, pigeons, wildebeest or whatever) in the facility. Black and white. Easy.

2. Urine is sterile but you do not want it on your food whether it gets cooked or not.

3. There is no health benefit in drinking urine whether it's your own, fido's or Madonna's.

4. In a survival situation you do not drink urine even if you have nothing else to drink. I can help you make a solar still or gypsy well if it helps...



Thanks D-D :clap: :clap:


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Posted 21 March 2011 - 09:14 PM

Oooops... there is my cue to shutup.... (and will..after this post)


Apologies guys if I have come across as offending..but assure you was just debating for the 'dark' side..

Just felt that , most of our recommendation re food safety stem from the process of HACCP, using the risk matrix, decision trees etc and feel that any recommendation, however common sense it may sound, should still go through the due process and become formalised in the FSP document which in most cases has been authorised/endorsed by senior management. So if they violate this later we just use the system to document their NC and progress to next steps...

If this is done , then 'most' management would be able to appreciate the concern of the QA managers from a business perspective and not dismiss it as a individulas whim.. (Moochie - do note that you may face the odd unreasonable boss!)

But , do agree with D-D and Moochie about the final recommendation ,re No Animals :smile:

Cheers,

SriramB



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Dr Ajay Shah

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 04:20 AM

I do feel for you Moochie.

If you resign and got sued then you could threaten the boss by stating that you would report the incident to the Environmental Health Officer. At least you may win the case and may get a better job offer elsewhere by practicing what you preach.

Regards

Ajay


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www.aasfood.com


D-D

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 10:52 AM

Apologies guys if I have come across as offending..but assure you was just debating for the 'dark' side..


No need to apologise and I think I can reply for MOOCHIE too, to say certainly no offence taken! Good debate!


MOOCHIE

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 03:11 PM

No need to apologise and I think I can reply for MOOCHIE too, to say certainly no offence taken! Good debate!


Life would be so boring if we all agreed, Basically we all have the same attitude to what is right and wrong. And as my colleague says no offence,

:bye:


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Posted 22 March 2011 - 04:04 PM

This post has gone off on a very bizarre direction.


It adds to the entertainment value :smile:


MOOCHIE

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 07:30 PM

It adds to the entertainment value :smile:



So true!!!!!
:band: party on dudes


SriramB

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 09:12 PM

Life would be so boring if we all agreed,
:bye:


Thanks, cheers, one and all..

p.s. the 'debate' continues offline now in our team :smile: and so does the entertainment...

Hope it all works out fine with your boss.


Simon

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 09:26 PM

When reading through the thread I wanted to know why a dog is bad. Of course it's obvious in all standards and regulations animals should not be allowed on food premises, that's the rules, but why is it the rule? Is it because they are big and hairy (I'm big and hairy), OK I'm toilet trained, but apart from that I'm quite undistinguishable from a dog.

What pooch related hazards fall out of the risk assessment for this product / process? Those facts should provide the why’s, which develops understanding, that sometimes changes mindsets and behavior. Sometimes.

Regards,
Simon


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Charles.C

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 09:44 PM

Dear Simon,

What pooch related hazards fall out of the risk assessment for this product / process?


1. Rabies

2. Mobile flea source

3. Postman's Nip

4. Territorial marking.

Rgds / Charles.C

Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


Simon

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 09:50 PM

Dear Simon,

1. Rabies None in UK

2. Mobile flea source Very weak

3. Postman's Nip - Agreed - ban the dog

4. Territorial marking. Diaper

Rgds / Charles.C

Seriously is that it?

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 10:09 PM

Seriously is that it?



Hi

Just wondering if any one has had an opportunity to actually evaluate the hazard (dogs or cats or hairy creatures) while developing their PRPs and if so can share that...

Hate to think that we wouldnt be able to explian the potential hazard and its severity in a logical manner....:smile:

In our case I will try to get our HACCP team to go thru the process (and evaluate this specif issue) to see what we get (just for kicks)...




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