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3rd Party Audit - How Many Nonconformities is a Good Result?


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Simon

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 07:25 PM

So how did you perform in your last audit, what is your goal, how many nonconformities do you consider is a good result and would make you happy?

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Simon

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 06:52 AM

By the way I think <10 Minor Non-conformances is a very good result and in BRC that would be grade A. I could probably find >10 minor non-conformances in any factory if I tried hard enough and was very pedantic.


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mind over matter

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 07:40 AM

17 minor findings were noted after after Halal audit



Simon

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 08:10 AM

Were you happy with 17 MOM?


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mind over matter

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 08:29 AM

Were you happy with 17 MOM?

Yes and No.

Happy - third party auditors identified some areas of weakness in our systems for us to address.

However there are findings not-adding values, e.g. tire bath etc.
Unhappy - we spent thousands of pesos for some non-value added services.

And they should say “consider this…” instead of saying “you should do this…” --- after all it’s our company.

Edited by mind over matter, 03 June 2011 - 08:36 AM.


Dr Ajay Shah

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 07:36 AM

In my opinion if one gets 3 minor non conformances they are doing well.

Everybody will have a different opinion and that is why it is good to have a standard set such as by BRC and SQF alike.


Dr Ajay Shah.,
BSc (Hons), MSc, PhD, PGCE(FE)
Managing Director & Principal Consultant
AAS Food Technology Pty Ltd
www.aasfood.com


Madam A. D-tor

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 10:42 AM

Hi Sion,

If a company is satisfied with the audit results (number of minors) depends on more then one thing:
- standard; (5 minors for BRC is good; 5 minors for ISO 22000 will probably not lead to certification)
- history of the organisation (e.g. previous audit. If the previous audit gained 7 minors, 10 minors do not feel good and 5 do)
- attitude of the organisation (do they only want a certificate because the customer ask it, or do they really want to improve their processes)
- agreement/understanding to the non-conformity (every non-conformity you do not agree is one to many and will not be satisfying)
- relevance of the clauses the non-conformity is written to (e.g. some requirements ask for details to be written in documented procedures, if one of these details is not written in the procedure and a non conformity is raised, this feels as a not relevant non-conformity)

In general, i see, that organisations are satisfied if the result is the same or better then the previous audit.


Kind Regards,

Madam A. D-tor

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Simon

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 07:48 PM

Yes Madam A. D-tor one can be satisfied with continual improvement.


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Jim E.

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 03:28 PM

Is there really a magic number for non-conformities? You have one audit you get a non-conformance for an item, you correct it. Next auditor shows up and gives us a non-conformance for our correction because he liked it the other way. Sometimes very frustrating. Also, an auditor request information on corrective actions from his last audit and goes out of his way to find something else just so we get a non-conformance, again very frustrating. I do not think we vcan ever be perfect.

As for a total number we would like to keep it to less than 5 on any one audit.



redchariot

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 05:51 PM

It depends on your history and expectations

We have had Grade A BRC for several years and we would consider it a failure to have more than 10 minors and end up with Grade B; in fact we wouldn't be happy if we had any more than 7

On the other hand, if we got through the TFMS audit with 14 minors (max allowed to obtain a Green score), we would be estatic, we got amber due to over 20 minors this year and very disappointed.

TFMS is so far ahead of BRC now and the standard is so much higher. With the new BRC revision due to come out soon, this will possibly change



Rosemary4

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 01:57 PM

We went from 4 minor NC's in 2009 to 3 minors in 2010 which the MD thought was good, but I still take them personally. I was hoping to improve this year but with the introduction of the new issue 4 of the BRC Packaging standard and the same auditor moving the goalposts every year, who knows....................................



esquef

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 03:07 PM

I agree with your 2nd post Simon, and will be thrilled to have less than 10 minors on our upcoming SQF audit.



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Posted 08 June 2011 - 04:57 PM

0 but then I'm a perfectionist. 2 minors is my best so far in BRC and both of them were pedantry.



Simon

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 09:14 PM

I could find 10 nonconformities any time, any place, any where in the world.
You can argue all you like, but I have a clipboard and a torch and a standard for a shield. :smile:


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Simon

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 07:47 PM

I've come to the conclusion zero nonconformities is impossible - do you agree?


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tsmith7858

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 07:58 PM

I've come to the conclusion zero nonconformities is impossible - do you agree?


We were given a 3rd party audit report from a suppiler once that was a perfect score. I think it raised as many red flags as someone who just barely passed.

I cannot imagine an auditor worth the salary they are paid that could not find something and often find that they feel obligated to find things which means zero findings and perfects scores are unlikely.


Simon

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:07 PM

We were given a 3rd party audit report from a suppiler once that was a perfect score. I think it raised as many red flags as someone who just barely passed.

That's the point TS, nobody trusts it because it cannot be true and therefore the auditor and auditee lose credibility. With an audit such as BRC or any GFSI standard with so many requirements; even a fantastic site will have many issues (admittedly usually small ones).

Regards,
Simon

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Madam A. D-tor

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 07:29 PM

Unfortunately, I need to confess that no non-conformities on GFSI agreed schemes are possible.

It happens to me twice:

The first company was a very small organisation, which hired an external consultant for Quality Management. The consultant fixed everything in the 2-3 weeks before the audit. I felt that there was no committment by the director/owner, but the consultant did a good job and all the requirements were fullfilled in the right way. Eventhough I normally do not search for NCs, I did with this audit. it did not feel right that this company had no NCs, but there was nothing that did not exactly comply with the standard.

The second company was a large company, with a very good quality management system, a simple process, a low risk product and a very strong QA-manager. In the third year that I visited this organisation (which is already certified for many, many, many years) I concluded that they have picked up all the NCs from previous audits and that there were just no NCs left. It was a learning company, which handles NCs the way they should be and implemented structural solutions.




Kind Regards,

Madam A. D-tor

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 10:23 PM

History and expectations, I agree totally. In 2010 we have 10 minor NCs in out 3rd party audit for the ISO 22000 and this year we're very proud to have just 2 minor NCs, I think all the board of directors is very happy because that shows the continuous improvement of our system and the security level of our products.



Simon

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 07:52 PM

Unfortunately, I need to confess that no non-conformities on GFSI agreed schemes are possible.

It happens to me twice:

The first company was a very small organisation, which hired an external consultant for Quality Management. The consultant fixed everything in the 2-3 weeks before the audit. I felt that there was no committment by the director/owner, but the consultant did a good job and all the requirements were fullfilled in the right way. Eventhough I normally do not search for NCs, I did with this audit. it did not feel right that this company had no NCs, but there was nothing that did not exactly comply with the standard.

The second company was a large company, with a very good quality management system, a simple process, a low risk product and a very strong QA-manager. In the third year that I visited this organisation (which is already certified for many, many, many years) I concluded that they have picked up all the NCs from previous audits and that there were just no NCs left. It was a learning company, which handles NCs the way they should be and implemented structural solutions.

Of course I trust you Madam A. D-tor, so I do a u-turn and say it is possible.
After all nothing is impossible. :smile:


History and expectations, I agree totally. In 2010 we have 10 minor NCs in out 3rd party audit for the ISO 22000 and this year we're very proud to have just 2 minor NCs, I think all the board of directors is very happy because that shows the continuous improvement of our system and the security level of our products.

Well done rsandrin. It's good news, the only slight downer is that you have set a very high bar and standard to maintain.

Regards,
Simon

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