16 replies to this topic

[Anne Z]

Hi,

In one of our warehouses we store empty drums and IBC's. The drums and IBC's will be filled with edible oils at a different location.
At the moment we use toxic bait to control the rodents. However one auditor was shocked and claimed it needed to be non toxic as it is an USA rule. Our company is bases in the Netherlands, so I wonder why we have to follow the USA rules? Also I think the chance of the toxic bait being in the empty drums/IBC is 0 as they're closed and opend on a different location.

What kind of bait do you have in a storage warehouse with closed products?


Kinds regards,

Anne

[jockdude]

Hi Anne
We have both open product and closed packaging within the same production area,so we use non-toxic baits internally. But I have always been under the impression that toxic was for use outside and non-toxic is for internal use.
Version 6 of the BRC Global Standard, section 4.13, clause 4.13.4 refers to toxic baits and their use. It does mention "open product" and the fact that toxic baits should not be used in that area. In your case,if my rodent proofing was up to scratch and I was confident that there was no rodent problem I would be happy to continue with non toxic bait. Its seems that these clauses are all connected and one thing leads onto another and before you know it it all starts to make sense.
The fact that there is toxic bait in the proximity of your drums and IBC's means that there is a chance of them being contaminated, however small the chance may be.

Just some of my thoughts and I'm happy to be shot down and proved otherwise

Jockdude.

[Simon]

Non toxic inside, toxic outside.

[Philips]

There are to ways of looking at it. The toxic pestsides are in food packaging material (drums) storage. Whether empty and closed, they remain to be food packaging materials.

2. If during handling the handlers or the drums come into contact with the toxic materails, then they are taken to the production for packaging, then its not right. so the auditor is right in some ways. He / She is not just loooking at it at the face value but also trying to consider some other factors that would lender to be hazadours in the subsequent processes

[Bunny]

Simon I`m sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings but there are currently ongoing major changes in the statutory use boxes on all rodenticides in the UK.

It will now be an offence to maintain permanent toxic bait stations externally, unless covered by a risk assessment you are prepared to cover you in a court of law.

This is to protect wildlife and non-target species because of the increases in secondary poisoning with raptors and other animals higher up in the food chain. in most cases and especially where a food production site is in a semi rural location the majority of activity in external bait station will be by field mice and voles these are technically not pest species but transient visitors and are not covered by the conditions of use of rodenticides.

This will have the effect of making a pest control contract a monitoring and reactive service, this is the way forward some don`t like it but being environmentally aware is now the watchword and the authorities are taking the accidental poisoning of other wildlife due to poor baiting and permanent external baiting techniques very seriously indeed.

So in the UK if you expect to have permanent baiting on your building perimeter and fence-line you will be dissapointed I`m afraid. And now if you try to insist that your pest control contractor does so you will be asking them to commit an offence

Sorry guys that the way things stand at the moment, Also the Sustainable Use Directive is also on its way from the EU which will further make changes that will impact on the way that pest control is undertaken in the uk. I suspect that these changes will dramatically alter the service you may have been used to up to now.

It will be for the better, much more professional but there will be cost implications

Best Wishes

Bunny

Edited by Bunny, 12 November 2011 - 10:34 PM.

[Tony-C]

Hi,

What kind of bait do you have in a storage warehouse with closed products?


Kinds regards,

Anne

For me it would depend on history and risk of infestation.

As a previous poster has said BRC states they should not be used where open product is stored. From your post I assume that you do not store open product, therefore I do not see a problem with toxic bait in this storage area providing you ensure baits are secured in place, tamper resistant, and located so as not to represent a contamination risk to the product.

Not sure why your auditor mentioned 'USA rules' as you are in the Netherlands unless you are applying an American standard such as AIB which specifically does not permit toxic baits internally but does require monitoring in sensitive areas like 'goods in' warehouses and storage areas. On the other hand SQF requires devices to be located so as not to present a contamination risk to product, packaging, containers or processing equipment.

If you think the toxic bait is a major issue then you could switch to something like a 'gas trap' that uses carbon dioxide.

Regards,

Tony

[mgourley]

Regardless local/national rules that govern the use of toxic bait indoors, I suggest you not use them for one simple reason:
Where do the poisoned rodents go to expire? Presumably within the facility.
Unless you have an inspection program that checks every square inch of your facility on a weekly basis, decomposing rodents inside the facility is not a good thing.

My suggestion would be to first inspect the fabric of the building and remove any ingress points. Second, place toxic baits outside. Third, place mechanical catch devices inside where the most likely points of ingress are/were.

If you are considering toxic baits inside the facility, it would appear that there is already an infestation problem. Even if that is the case, reliance on toxic bait as a control measure will not be sufficient.

Marshall

[mgourley]

Simon I`m sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings but there are currently ongoing major changes in the statutory use boxes on all rodenticides in the UK.

It will now be an offence to maintain permanent toxic bait stations externally, unless covered by a risk assessment you are prepared to cover you in a court of law.

This is to protect wildlife and non-target species because of the increases in secondary poisoning with raptors and other animals higher up in the food chain. in most cases and especially where a food production site is in a semi rural location the majority of activity in external bait station will be by field mice and voles these are technically not pest species but transient visitors and are not covered by the conditions of use of rodenticides.

This will have the effect of making a pest control contract a monitoring and reactive service, this is the way forward some don`t like it but being environmentally aware is now the watchword and the authorities are taking the accidental poisoning of other wildlife due to poor baiting and permanent external baiting techniques very seriously indeed.

So in the UK if you expect to have permanent baiting on your building perimeter and fence-line you will be dissapointed I`m afraid. And now if you try to insist that your pest control contractor does so you will be asking them to commit an offence

Sorry guys that the way things stand at the moment, Also the Sustainable Use Directive is also on its way from the EU which will further make changes that will impact on the way that pest control is undertaken in the uk. I suspect that these changes will dramatically alter the service you may have been used to up to now.

It will be for the better, much more professional but there will be cost implications

Best Wishes

Bunny

So basically the thinking in the UK/EU is that the prevention of a few bird deaths is preferable to a safe and wholesome food supply for humans?
Disturbing indeed.

Marshall

[Bunny]

So basically the thinking in the UK/EU is that the prevention of a few bird deaths is preferable to a safe and wholesome food supply for humans?
Disturbing indeed.

Marshall

Marshall that isn`t the half of the problem mate,

With regard to pest control in the US versus the UK we are as but children, we are a poor relative.

My friend and colleague recently returned from the US having visited the NPMA pestworld exhibition as the ceo of the British Pest Control Association and frankly the US delegates were genuinely scared by what happens this side of the pond.

There are no statutory minimum entry standards into the industry, there is no legal requirement for technicians to follow a CPD route to update and keep their skills relevant and no personal licencing of pest control techs.

This is one of the reasons this sort of measure is required, I recently gave a lecture at our own industry exhibition and to my dismay 20% of the questions fielded were looking for ways to circumvent either the law or the Code of Practice we were lecturing on.

It`s a bloody joke on occasion, it will get better but for too long too many persons have been receiving a sub-standard, cheap and nasty service. Because they liked the price they were prepared to accept it for all its failings.

So now many businesses in the UK have become price conditioned, if and when things improve and the industry becomes a proper profession there will be cost implications and I`m not sure that they are ready for it because they have had it too easy for far too long.

Only time will tell

Best Wishes

Bunny

[mgourley]

Marshall that isn`t the half of the problem mate,

With regard to pest control in the US versus the UK we are as but children, we are a poor relative.

My friend and colleague recently returned from the US having visited the NPMA pestworld exhibition as the ceo of the British Pest Control Association and frankly the US delegates were genuinely scared by what happens this side of the pond.

There are no statutory minimum entry standards into the industry, there is no legal requirement for technicians to follow a CPD route to update and keep their skills relevant and no personal licencing of pest control techs.

This is one of the reasons this sort of measure is required, I recently gave a lecture at our own industry exhibition and to my dismay 20% of the questions fielded were looking for ways to circumvent either the law or the Code of Practice we were lecturing on.

It`s a bloody joke on occasion, it will get better but for too long too many persons have been receiving a sub-standard, cheap and nasty service. Because they liked the price they were prepared to accept it for all its failings.

So now many businesses in the UK have become price conditioned, if and when things improve and the industry becomes a proper profession there will be cost implications and I`m not sure that they are ready for it because they have had it too easy for far too long.

Only time will tell

Best Wishes

Bunny

Well, that would explain quite a bit. If there as not been any incentive to provide a service that actually eliminates pests, or provides a worthwhile service, I can see why many Pest Control Companies (and those that pay them, are happy with a wink, nod an a cheque passed between them). Apparently to the detriment of all involved.

I can only speak for myself, but at two of the three food manufacturing facilities I have worked for in the past 20 years, we have been responsible for our own pest control monitoring and application. I have had to be licensed by the state and have had to keep said certification current.
The one facility I worked for that had contracted services, I fired two different companies before I found one that would do things the way "I wanted them done".

By and large, contracted pest control companies, regardless their competency, have no real "skin in the game" as it were. If they lose an account, there will always be another account to gain. When you do your own pest control, you tend to take it seriously.

Back to the main topic though, there has been some talk and some local legislation in the US about non-toxic baits in external bait stations. I'm not quite sure what the purpose of baiting rodents, thus drawing them closer to your facility and then not poisoning them is.

Marshall

[Tony-C]

I'm not quite sure what the purpose of baiting rodents, thus drawing them closer to your facility and then not poisoning them is.
Marshall

Some good points.

Why not the same for inside a facility? What risk is there from decomposing rodents if there are any that aren't found?

Regards,

Tony

[Bunny]

Well, that would explain quite a bit. If there as not been any incentive to provide a service that actually eliminates pests, or provides a worthwhile service, I can see why many Pest Control Companies (and those that pay them, are happy with a wink, nod an a cheque passed between them). Apparently to the detriment of all involved.

I can only speak for myself, but at two of the three food manufacturing facilities I have worked for in the past 20 years, we have been responsible for our own pest control monitoring and application. I have had to be licensed by the state and have had to keep said certification current.

Marshall

I look forward to that happy day when we are a proper licenced profession, I`m realistic enough to know that it will be unlikely in my working lifetime depressingly. Unfortunately the end user client is either unaware or doesn`t care just so long as the price is right for them.

The problem is no-one has been killed by a pest controller, if that were to happen then you`d see the ball rolling big time. I have asked for volunteers for death by misuse of pesticides but I`ve had no takers and that will be the only way the situation would improve.

Until then I`ll plough my lonely furrow and fight the good fight

Bunny

[mgourley]

Some good points.

Why not the same for inside a facility? What risk is there from decomposing rodents if there are any that aren't found?

Regards,

Tony

Interior rodent traps (mice) are multi-catch. Placed on each side of man doors and roll up doors and are checked weekly.
I can honestly say in 20 years I have not seen a decomposing rodent in any of the facilities I have worked in.

Marshall

[mgourley]

I look forward to that happy day when we are a proper licenced profession, I`m realistic enough to know that it will be unlikely in my working lifetime depressingly. Unfortunately the end user client is either unaware or doesn`t care just so long as the price is right for them.

The problem is no-one has been killed by a pest controller, if that were to happen then you`d see the ball rolling big time. I have asked for volunteers for death by misuse of pesticides but I`ve had no takers and that will be the only way the situation would improve.

Until then I`ll plough my lonely furrow and fight the good fight

Bunny

From your earlier post about the powers that be seemingly intent on legislating that nothing be harmed, I can understand your pessimism.
Perhaps a YouTube video of vermin happily rooting around in the vats of crisps of a well known manufacturer might spur some attention?

Marshall

[faisal rafique]

It is preferable to use non toxic baits to avoid complication in food safety.

[Charles.C]

It is preferable to use non toxic baits to avoid complication in food safety.

Dear faisal rafique,

I am confident that the target will agree with this POV also.

Rgds / Charles.C

[Anne Z]

Hello all,

Thank you al for your opinion about the different traps. Some interesting developments in the UK!
We hire a external certified pest control company to check every 3 weeks if there are acivities / dead rodents. I will ask them as well about the different views toxic and non toxic as well.

As for the different standards Tony mentioned. We don't need to be AIB or BRC, but I guess some auditors want it all and follow these standards during the customer audit.

Anne

Edited by Anne Z, 17 November 2011 - 08:14 AM.