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shea quay

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 03:55 PM

Recently when reviewing suppliers I found out that the handsoap we use contains Coconut Diethanolamide. It's used in a wide range of handwashes and washing up liquids as a stabiliser for the bubbles. As we are a nut free site, I asked the supplier to get us a one liner saying there was no allergen risk posed by this product etc etc. They got back today saying the manufacturer would not supply such as document as they could not back it up. They've tried two other major British manufactureres who have basicly said the same thing, and they are struggling to find a handwash that doesn't contain coconum diethanolamide.

Has anyone come accross this before and been able to come to any firm conclusions with regard to our nut free status? Our supplier's line at the moment is "erm, but aren't they washing their hands with it so won't that kill the allergen".

Thanks in advance for any assistance.



Madam A. D-tor

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 10:06 AM

Tricky!

Can it not be validated that diethanolamide is processed and does not contain any allergenic proteins anymore?


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Madam A. D-tor

YongYM

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 10:29 AM

Dear all:

Is coconut from the 'nut family'?

So far, we are follwing the standard as attached and noticed that coconut is not from the 'tree nut' even though the name contains nut.
My link [refer to page 20]

Edited by YongYM, 24 February 2012 - 01:23 AM.


MRios

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 03:16 PM

http://www.ifsqn.com...conut-allergen/


That´s the link to a discussion on whether coconuts cause allergies or not. Apparently, it´s a low risk, as coconut itself. You would think that a product that is derived from coconuts would be sufficiently processed to not cause any problems, but the provider would have to validate it.


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shea quay

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 03:45 PM

Despite a low prevalence of allergies to coconut in the U.S., the (FDA) began identifying coconut as a tree nut in October 2006. Though not mentioned explicitely in Section 8 of Annex IIIa of 2007/68/EC, it's the opening bit of Nuts, i.e. .... before mentioning various types of tree nuts that has me concerned.

The manufacturer explained their situation a bit better to me today - the problem is the source of the coconut extract cannot be guarenteed as being tree nut free. Apparently Bounty bars have the same issue - in the countries where they put allergen information on their packaging (bought a 5 pack on my way home yesterday and it didn't have any, but according to their Australian site....) Bounty Bars contain Wheat, Milk, Soya and Peanut, May contain Tree Nuts, Egg and Barley). Didn't help me much, but will no doubt form the centre piece to a facisinating dinner party story some day.

So, anyone with any ideas?



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Charles.C

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 12:59 AM

Dear shea quay,

Based on yr comments, not entirely surprised that the manufacturer(s) is wary. Rather hard to believe that there are no alternatives though, maybe the order quantity to yr supplier is not large enough to be effort-worthy :smile: .

I would hv thought this would be an already (raised/discussed) legislatory issue in yr local area (not to mention FSA/UK etc).

If not, the distribution, hopefully not Australia, basic sensitivity of yr product (forgotten what is is) obviously relates (rightly or wrongly). I deduce there is no relevant Company Policy other than "legislatory compliance".

I am guessing there is more official background, as yet unearthed, to this interesting topic. Again illustrates the potential headaches associated with allergenic features and the "may contain" card of pragmatic necessity.

Rgds / Charles.C


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Charles.C


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GMO

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 06:59 AM

I think you're over thinking this. Do you supply to the US? I see you're based in Ireland, in which case you are governed by EU law not US law.

EU law identifies these items as nuts:

Nuts i. e. Almond (Amygdalus communis L.), Hazelnut (Corylus avellana), Walnut (Juglans regia), Cashew (Anacardium occidentale), Pecan nut (Carya illinoiesis (Wangenh.) K. Koch), Brazil nut (Bertholletia excelsa), Pistachio nut (Pistacia vera), Macadamia nut and Queensland nut (Macadamia ternifolia) and products thereof

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2003:308:0015:0018:EN:PDF

It is possible to have an allergy to coconut but it's not (currently) regarded as an allergen requiring labelling by the EU as it's very uncommon. It's also possible to have an allergy to strawberries (and more common in the UK I would argue) but they don't require labelling either. In fact it's possible to have an allergy to any food containing any protein. I think you have to be pragmatic, work within the law, try to limit cross contamination where you can. Don't get me wrong, I think the fact you checked the ingredients of your hand wash was a very good thing but I think you're possibly going into too much depth.



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shea quay

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 09:37 AM

I agree with both of you - had a nightmare about Bounty bars, handsoap and flesh eating zombies with tree nut intolerances last night!
From a final conversation with the supplier today - essentially they said they could not guarentee the adsence to tree nuts in the handsoap, but any auditor who brought it up should really get out more. I have taken this advice myself, and will be found by the bar for the majority of the weekend! Thanks for the help!



Charles.C

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 09:45 AM

Dear All,

No idea about Irish/EU law details but i would have thought that product exported anywhere will be import controlled by the laws at destination.

Rgds / Charles.C


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Charles.C


Madam A. D-tor

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 09:47 AM

Apparently Bounty bars have the same issue - in the countries where they put allergen information on their packaging (bought a 5 pack on my way home yesterday and it didn't have any, but according to their Australian site....) Bounty Bars contain Wheat, Milk, Soya and Peanut, May contain Tree Nuts, Egg and Barley).


Dear shea quay,

The differences in allergen declaration on international products, comes from production in different production facilities.

I heard of chocolat bars from Milka (Kraft) which have different allergen declaration in the 'may contain'- part. The chocolat bar (same recipe, same label) is produced in different sites. In site A also chocolat bars with nuts and peanuts are produced, in site B plain chocolat bars and chocolat bars with grains (crisps?) are produced. The may contain for site A includes peanuts and nuts the may contain declaration for site B wheat and gluten.
This was then (I have heard it on a course in 2006) a problem for the organisation, because the same chocolat bars, with identical label, were labelled with different allergens. This was a proble for their allergen suffering consumers. Consumers with allergy, knew that they could buy and eat this specif type of chocolat bar in their country/region and assumed that the product was the same if they were visiting another country/region. (which I would do to) I do not kno how and if Kraft has solved this. Either by putting all the possible allergens on all the sites on the labels or by segregation of productions (with more transportation costs)

I can imagine that Bounty Bars are not produced in one site and the allergens in may contain can come from possible cross contaminations from Snickers, Balisto, or any other candy Bar from Mars.

However if Bounty Bars contain wheat, milk and soya in Austalian, the bars should also contain these in Ireland. For as far as I know the recipes are comparable. Milk and soya probably comes from the chcolate. Peanuts??

I checked the Dutch, Belgium and German site for the labelling. No 'may contain' declaration for the products on these 3 sites. I will check a Bounty Bar this weekend. ;)

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Madam A. D-tor

Ian R

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 11:33 AM

Coconut is not a NUT it is the seed of a coconut plant, just as coconut milk is not milk, and is not one of the 14 major allergens stated in the EC Directive.

Recently when reviewing suppliers I found out that the handsoap we use contains Coconut Diethanolamide. It's used in a wide range of handwashes and washing up liquids as a stabiliser for the bubbles. As we are a nut free site, I asked the supplier to get us a one liner saying there was no allergen risk posed by this product etc etc. They got back today saying the manufacturer would not supply such as document as they could not back it up. They've tried two other major British manufactureres who have basicly said the same thing, and they are struggling to find a handwash that doesn't contain coconum diethanolamide.

Has anyone come accross this before and been able to come to any firm conclusions with regard to our nut free status? Our supplier's line at the moment is "erm, but aren't they washing their hands with it so won't that kill the allergen".

Thanks in advance for any assistance.



GMO

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 01:02 PM

Dear All,

No idea about Irish/EU law details but i would have thought that product exported anywhere will be import controlled by the laws at destination.

Rgds / Charles.C


Yes I agree which is why I asked if they were exporting to the US as that seems to be one of the few markets which identifies coconuts as a nut.

Feeling like I'm repeating myself now...


GMO

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 01:05 PM

Dear shea quay,

The differences in allergen declaration on international products, comes from production in different production facilities.

I heard of chocolat bars from Milka (Kraft) which have different allergen declaration in the 'may contain'- part. The chocolat bar (same recipe, same label) is produced in different sites. In site A also chocolat bars with nuts and peanuts are produced, in site B plain chocolat bars and chocolat bars with grains (crisps?) are produced. The may contain for site A includes peanuts and nuts the may contain declaration for site B wheat and gluten.
This was then (I have heard it on a course in 2006) a problem for the organisation, because the same chocolat bars, with identical label, were labelled with different allergens. This was a proble for their allergen suffering consumers. Consumers with allergy, knew that they could buy and eat this specif type of chocolat bar in their country/region and assumed that the product was the same if they were visiting another country/region. (which I would do to) I do not kno how and if Kraft has solved this. Either by putting all the possible allergens on all the sites on the labels or by segregation of productions (with more transportation costs)

I can imagine that Bounty Bars are not produced in one site and the allergens in may contain can come from possible cross contaminations from Snickers, Balisto, or any other candy Bar from Mars.

However if Bounty Bars contain wheat, milk and soya in Austalian, the bars should also contain these in Ireland. For as far as I know the recipes are comparable. Milk and soya probably comes from the chcolate. Peanuts??

I checked the Dutch, Belgium and German site for the labelling. No 'may contain' declaration for the products on these 3 sites. I will check a Bounty Bar this weekend. ;)


I would suggest through the Australian VITAL allergy tool they've identified that the cross contamination risks are so high (presumably the product is made on the same line as Snickers) that they have to declare "contains" not just "may contain".





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