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#1 tkloch@ford

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Posted 19 September 2018 - 06:42 PM

SQF only states "appropriate temperature" for hand washing. Any one know what appropriate is?  I did find what I believe the health department suggests and that stated 100 F. ??



#2 Sweet'n'low

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Posted 19 September 2018 - 07:24 PM

Hey TK,

 

CDC states that temperature really doesn't play a factor.

 

"The temperature of the water does not appear to affect microbe removal; however, warmer water may cause more skin irritation and is more environmentally costly"

 

https://www.cdc.gov/...andwashing.html



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#3 Scampi

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Posted 19 September 2018 - 07:52 PM

The ideal temperature should be around body temp...............only because if the temp is comfortable people are more likely to wash properly

 

 

To further above post, water temp has zero baring on microbial removal.............washing hands is the actual physical movements and the water simply rinses away what has been dislodged from washing

 

 

So have maintenance adjust the hot/cold (assuming you've got a hands free here) so that the water is comfy to use


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#4 jalex194021

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Posted 19 September 2018 - 08:15 PM

Maybe this will help. I had a FDA audit 2 months ago and our water took to long to warm up!

  1. Hand Wash Water Temperatures - Personal Hygiene ...
    www.ifsqn.com › … › Food Safety Topics › Personal Hygiene

    The temperature of the water used for hand washing is not critical however a temperature of around 35°C to 45°C is recommended as no one likes washing hands in cold water <20°C or hot water >49°C. Hands should be washed thoroughly in warm water running at around 4-8 litres per minute. Certainly that's the ideal; but this was the exception.

  2. CFR - Code of Federal Regulations Title 21
    https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch...

    Hand-washing facilities shall be adequate and convenient and be furnished with running water at a suitable temperature. Compliance with this requirement may be accomplished by providing: (1) Hand-washing and, where appropriate, hand-sanitizing facilities at each location in the plant where good sanitary practices require employees to wash and/or …



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#5 Charles.C

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 02:19 AM

SQF only states "appropriate temperature" for hand washing. Any one know what appropriate is?  I did find what I believe the health department suggests and that stated 100 F. ??

 

Hi tkloch,

 

It has always been a controversial topic.

 

See these threads -

 

https://www.ifsqn.co...emperature-486/

 

https://www.ifsqn.co...ing-water-temp/


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


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#6 gud2ya

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 08:47 AM

Yes, new study that warmer is not actually better when it comes to handwashing: link



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#7 Brendan Triplett

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 12:40 PM

tkloch,

 

There is, of course, no magic number that you can recite because the sink can be turned to any temperature for hand washing.  There is a study that reviewed water temperature and found that higher temperatures only had a small impact on the removal of bacteria. (This is the study).

 

Instead, I would say that you can mention that hand washing stations are available but perhaps consider the product used to help wash your hands.  Soap is good, alcohol is better.  There are combo resources out there and if the soap (and I must stress to NEVER use bar soap) is good then it will do a better job than any water temperature could.  There is a study that reviews the best hand sanitizing products.  it is worth a good read.  (This is the study).

 

Cheers!


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Brendan Triplett


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#8 Scampi

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 12:51 PM

I have to disagree Brendan..........maybe in theory alcohol is better, but can create all sorts of small cracks in hands where bacteria can hide which creates are larger problem, as well as creating contact dermatitis on hands which leads to employees taking time off work.......

 

You simply cannot replace good handwashing  (and your second link is about health care providers where the concern is different pathogens in a very pathogenic environment)

 

Alcohol based sanitizers are only to be used WITH proper handwashing. Period.


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#9 Brendan Triplett

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 01:10 PM

Good points, no argument there.  Good hand washing is positive but we maintain hand sanitizers on site to be used in conjunction with the hand washing.  The idea was that alcohol, as you mention, can be an issue but if you find a good product that will keep your hands moisturized than it is effective without causing discomfort or time off for the dermatitis (which we have not experienced as of yet).  I mention the healthcare study because of its discussion on removal od bacteria in environments where they are prevalent.  This is especially an issue when dealing with raw poultry or other products that have a tendency to harbor bacteria.  A little bit of cross-industry review, if you'll allow the look :)

 

Bit of a question though... How many cases of dermatitis have you experienced with the sanitizers?  I want to make sure that we keep that in mind when it comes to selecting our products.

 

Thanks!


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#10 Scampi

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 01:27 PM

Tons and tons ( i'm no exaggerating) Peoples hands (especially in poultry where a heavy glove is worn always) seem to develop a sensitivity to it to the point where I've removed dispensers as I feel it is an unnecessary step and will not use them myself

 

If you are NOT making RTE protein based product or are in a "high care/risk" facility I believe the risks outweigh the benefits

 

 

If you have a facility where employees are not washing correctly, then the process isn't working, not the handwashing. Lots have facilities have implemented people movers that won't let you pass until hands are washed.....retrain using a black light and glow goop  http://www.glogerm.com/

 

And i always train handwashing from an EMPLOYEE SAFETY point of view (in poultry anyway) that proper handwashing is to keep themselves healthy.....there are some industry's (like raw poultry) where this is true..................campy sickens poultry workers because the don't wash properly at break lunch etc and then touch their mouth or eyes


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#11 Brendan Triplett

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 01:48 PM

Good info Scampi.  I think we will try that glogerm to help in the initial training for hygiene, really neat looking stuff from the website.  We may not be at a point yet where we remove all of the hand sanitizer stations but if nothing else it will get the team in line with good hygienic processes.  Thanks for the info!


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#12 QM-OS

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 01:52 PM

We did a simple ATP test to see if there was any difference with cold vs warm water.

Two persons was sampled before cleaning and after cleaning. One with cold water and one warm water. Results showed no significate difference, both got the same % difference after cleaning.

 

Water and soap is the key, not temperature of water.

 

The reason for the test is that it takes too long for the water to get warm at our hand-washing stations, (long water supply lines through the site), so an internal auditor suggested we tested if there was any difference.



#13 miseenplace

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 02:32 PM

current federal food code for United States is 100 but in Massachusetts they still refer to the 1999 version which is 110. 



#14 kfromNE

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 05:02 PM

Good info Scampi.  I think we will try that glogerm to help in the initial training for hygiene, really neat looking stuff from the website.  We may not be at a point yet where we remove all of the hand sanitizer stations but if nothing else it will get the team in line with good hygienic processes.  Thanks for the info!

 

When using glogerm have one person only use hand sanitizer. I've seen people very shocked by the results.



#15 Scampi

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 05:14 PM

it's amazing stuff!

 

When i was a kid the dentist did the same thing with red tablets you had to chew then brush to see what you missed


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#16 kfromNE

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 06:18 PM

it's amazing stuff!

 

When i was a kid the dentist did the same thing with red tablets you had to chew then brush to see what you missed

 

It is. Here's another effective way to show workers about washing hands. It was developed for restaurant workers but many of the slides are applicable. https://www.extensio...ety/yuck-photos



#17 Charles.C

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 08:29 PM

it's amazing stuff!

 

When i was a kid the dentist did the same thing with red tablets you had to chew then brush to see what you missed

 

And they still do. :thumbup:


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


#18 Brendan Triplett

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 10:41 PM

Hey guys,

Whenever it comes to germs I always try to check out what the CDC has to say. I have not however looked for handwashing until now. And found not only do they have an entire section dedicated to it but so does the World Health Organization (WHO). Check out their site:

http://www.who.int/g...g_education/en/


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#19 jcieslowski

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Posted 24 September 2018 - 01:28 PM

Since there's no given number, the auditor is going to be concerned that you somehow address it in a procedure and may ask if you monitor it in the facility (but my auditors have not asked since for sink temperature records since ~2013 - maybe they know it's silly)

 

That being said, some other standards I've worked with has specific temperatures.  7-11, for example, has their own criteria and requires water to meet or exceed 100°F.

 

But ultimately, I think it's just important for the auditor to know that it's something your facility is aware of and has considered.



#20 tkloch@ford

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 02:14 PM

I have to disagree as well.  I believe a good hand washing is the best way  for cleaning hands followed by alcohol sanitizers as the next best thing.  

 

 

I have to disagree Brendan..........maybe in theory alcohol is better, but can create all sorts of small cracks in hands where bacteria can hide which creates are larger problem, as well as creating contact dermatitis on hands which leads to employees taking time off work.......

 

You simply cannot replace good handwashing  (and your second link is about health care providers where the concern is different pathogens in a very pathogenic environment)

 

Alcohol based sanitizers are only to be used WITH proper handwashing. Period.



#21 tkloch@ford

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 02:20 PM

Hand washing is like a good sanitation program or COP  program, if you don't have the proper agitation, temperature and time  to remove the dirt and germs than the process will fail you. 

 

We did a simple ATP test to see if there was any difference with cold vs warm water.

Two persons was sampled before cleaning and after cleaning. One with cold water and one warm water. Results showed no significate difference, both got the same % difference after cleaning.

 

Water and soap is the key, not temperature of water.

 

The reason for the test is that it takes too long for the water to get warm at our hand-washing stations, (long water supply lines through the site), so an internal auditor suggested we tested if there was any difference.



#22 tkloch@ford

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 02:21 PM

What is 7-11? Never heard of it before.

 

Since there's no given number, the auditor is going to be concerned that you somehow address it in a procedure and may ask if you monitor it in the facility (but my auditors have not asked since for sink temperature records since ~2013 - maybe they know it's silly)

 

That being said, some other standards I've worked with has specific temperatures.  7-11, for example, has their own criteria and requires water to meet or exceed 100°F.

 

But ultimately, I think it's just important for the auditor to know that it's something your facility is aware of and has considered.



#23 tkloch@ford

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 02:26 PM

Just want to thank everyone for  their input. Many great comments. It all comes down to good training and making sure the employees follow good practice. 

 

I do see everyday, bad hand washing habits.  our facility is old and we do not have automatic sinks. We have old fashion handles that need to be turned on. I see folks all the time turning on the sink, washing their hands then using their clean hands to turn the faucet off. 

 

Many thanks and I will pass on some of this information to our safety team.

 

Teresa



#24 Scampi

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 02:52 PM

What is 7-11? Never heard of it before.

 

Really??? they are an international convenience store chain who just happens to make the best 2 am snacks known to man!!!!

 

7-Eleven Inc. is a Japanese-owned American international chain of convenience stores, headquartered in Dallas, Texas. The chain was known as Tote'm Stores until it was renamed in 1946. Its parent company, Seven-Eleven Japan Co., Ltd., operates, franchises, and licenses 66,579 stores in 17 countries as of 30 June 2018. Wikipedia

 

https://csnews.com/b...nd-sanitation-0


Edited by Scampi, 25 September 2018 - 02:54 PM.

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#25 tkloch@ford

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 03:42 PM

I didn't realize you were referring to the store chain 7-11. I am aware if them. Didn't know they were Japanese owned though. 

Really??? they are an international convenience store chain who just happens to make the best 2 am snacks known to man!!!!

 

7-Eleven Inc. is a Japanese-owned American international chain of convenience stores, headquartered in Dallas, Texas. The chain was known as Tote'm Stores until it was renamed in 1946. Its parent company, Seven-Eleven Japan Co., Ltd., operates, franchises, and licenses 66,579 stores in 17 countries as of 30 June 2018. Wikipedia

 

https://csnews.com/b...nd-sanitation-0






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