5 replies to this topic

[BakerNat]

Hi all,

 

So I am quite deep into writing, teaching, and implementing HACCP plans at the bakery I am at, and having a bit of  a mental break:

 

A. Yes, we will be sending some product off to labs, so this is preliminary to that

 

B. I have always avoided/minimized having product "working" for long periods in the time/ temp danger zone like the plague- my background is DOH, not FDA. 

However, we have several processes (mainly specific to cookie/ dough/ batter mixes) where our process holds/is working with UNBAKED dough for a period longer than 2 hours btw 40-140. I understand 2 hours is conservative. But, my point is, we have a kill step (baking, and far beyond 160 F ), so even if our batter is out for longer than 2 hours ( closer to 3) we should be ok? 

As a matter of labor efficiency/ general feeling good about our processes, I am pushing teams to push for the 2 hour mark. But how concerned should I be and/or will FDA be if they see that we have items which are held out beyond the 2 hour mark?

 

If the 2 hours does matter, my ultimate Q is how on earth everyone proofs their bread/ croissant within that time w the quality they want? 

I understand that the danger zone is really for finished product, but have been dinged by DOH before on product in prep if it took longer. Maybe just an overzealous inspector but wanted to check and make sure I am not totally thinking about it wrong.

 

Sorry, I understand it's all a bit circular and redundant. But these are the thoughts keeping me awake at night! 

 

Best,

 

Natalie

[Charles.C]

Hi all,

 

So I am quite deep into writing, teaching, and implementing HACCP plans at the bakery I am at, and having a bit of  a mental break:

 

A. Yes, we will be sending some product off to labs, so this is preliminary to that

 

B. I have always avoided/minimized having product "working" for long periods in the time/ temp danger zone like the plague- my background is DOH, not FDA. 

However, we have several processes (mainly specific to cookie/ dough/ batter mixes) where our process holds/is working with UNBAKED dough for a period longer than 2 hours btw 40-140. I understand 2 hours is conservative. But, my point is, we have a kill step (baking, and far beyond 160 F ), so even if our batter is out for longer than 2 hours ( closer to 3) we should be ok? 

As a matter of labor efficiency/ general feeling good about our processes, I am pushing teams to push for the 2 hour mark. But how concerned should I be and/or will FDA be if they see that we have items which are held out beyond the 2 hour mark?

 

If the 2 hours does matter, my ultimate Q is how on earth everyone proofs their bread/ croissant within that time w the quality they want? 

I understand that the danger zone is really for finished product, but have been dinged by DOH before on product in prep if it took longer. Maybe just an overzealous inspector but wanted to check and make sure I am not totally thinking about it wrong.

 

Sorry, I understand it's all a bit circular and redundant. But these are the thoughts keeping me awake at night! 

 

Best,

 

Natalie

 

Hi Natalie,

 

Obvious query - why not cool it ?

 

(My experience is with battermix for frying and we maintain < 5degC)

[Hank Major]

What is the Water Activity in the rising(?) dough?

[FSQA]

(Not my area of expertise, but tagging along for learning reasons):

 

As i understand toxin production (esp. Shiga toxin) during the extended times/ danger zone can be hazardous to the product and can pose a food safety concern, even with post baking/kill step. 

 

Following a good resource from AIB (not affiliated to them) for Baking process kill step. It helped few of the people that i know:

https://www.aibonlin...tep-calculators

 

Here is the FDA draft guidance for Hazards:

https://www.fda.gov/...A/UCM517402.pdf

[BakerNat]

Hi all-
We keep batter warm/hot so that it can be piped correctly into bake molds, and while batter is not held for 2 hours, from the time eggs are cracked to time they go into oven tends to be a bit over.
Thanks for the note on the shigella- I suppose that would explain/resolve all this so I will find a way to reduce our batch sizes etc so that we are within that window.
As for Aw, not entirely sure- partially why we are sending off to labs.

Thanks all!
These are very helpful points!

Natalie

[Charles.C]

Hi all-
We keep batter warm/hot so that it can be piped correctly into bake molds, and while batter is not held for 2 hours, from the time eggs are cracked to time they go into oven tends to be a bit over.
Thanks for the note on the shigella- I suppose that would explain/resolve all this so I will find a way to reduce our batch sizes etc so that we are within that window.
As for Aw, not entirely sure- partially why we are sending off to labs.

Thanks all!
These are very helpful points!

Natalie

 

I don't offhand recall ever hearing of an incident relating to this "product" due Shigella.

 

Shiga toxin on the other hand -

 

 raw cookie dough,2016,Salmonella,Path.E.coli,shiga toxin.pdf   1.06MB   97 downloads

 

FDA Pathogen Tables are available (seafood matrices) to estimate the allowable time to hold intermediate materials in-process at "elevated" temperatures