34 replies to this topic

[chah93]

Hi all,

Just random question, i’ve been working as QA for a year now, I dont have experience working as QA before and quite shocked on the working environment in my current company now.

Is it normal for the QA manager to sit around in the office all year long? Throughout 1 year of working He only went to the production area less than 10 times! And most of the reasons he went down is to assist the external auditor then after that he will sit in his room all day long.

He always say that we are his eyes and ears, but the problem is each time a problem occur, he will start questioning us about the process etc like he doesnt know a thing. All he does is reading our audit report and comment from that. I’m quite frustrated and demotivated because its us who have to deal with the kitchen staff and get scolded at, while he only motivates us from his chair.

Is it normal at other companies too?

#sorryandthanks!

[SQFconsultant]

No, this is not "normal."

[Dr.Khan]

It is not normal A good QA manager should understanding of the process environment and would be able to resolve issues on the go. I have come across many QA managers though who have little knowledge about the process they are managing a QA system for. 

 

a non-participating QA Manager is an overhead and should be get rid off ASAP.

 

Kind regards

Dr Humaid Khan

MD Halal International Services  

Australia

[Setanta]

Agreed, not normal.  The QA needs to have working knowledge of the process. 

While I am not always able to get out on the floor more than a couple of times a day, I know what is going on.

[chah93]

It is not normal A good QA manager should understanding of the process environment and would be able to resolve issues on the go. I have come across many QA managers though who have little knowledge about the process they are managing a QA system for.

a non-participating QA Manager is an overhead and should be get rid off ASAP.

Kind regards
Dr Humaid Khan
MD Halal International Services
Australia

Thanks Dr Humaid, I’m a bit relief that i’m not wrong at this. Well, honestly speaking he does know how to resolve issues, its just that we’re the one who is struggling doing the ground job to solve the issues while he is at his desk commanding around. Well, it does not hurt if he once in a while leave his desk and try to understand the real situation on what is happening at the production area. He is just lazy to do so.

Sometimes instead of giving solutions, he ask for ours and after that we are being scolded of giving wrong solutions. Its a real frustration here.

[chah93]

Agreed, not normal. The QA needs to have working knowledge of the process.
While I am not always able to get out on the floor more than a couple of times a day, I know what is going on.

Are you a QA manager?

[Miri]

Not only is this person a bad QA manager - he is a bad manager overall.  Unfortunately, it can take some time for bad managers to be revealed and have action taken to either improve or remove them.  Tread lightly so you don't put yourself at risk.  

[Setanta]

Are you a QA manager?

Yes.

[chah93]

Yes.

We surely need someone like you. A manager that goes down on floor monitoring on QA tasks. We always have communication breakdown in the team. Sad truth.

Edited by chah93, 14 November 2019 - 01:15 PM.

[kfromNE]

Who's above the QC Manager. Are you in a position where you could express your concerns to them. That is crazy that the QC Manager has only been on the floor 10 times. At the plant I work at, the 2 people above the QC Manager are out on the floor daily - maybe not for a long time but still out on the floor. Our QC Manager spends I would say 35% in the office and 65% on the floor but everyone's structure is different.

Edited by kfromNE, 14 November 2019 - 01:34 PM.

[Simon]

100% not.  Check out MBWA.

 

It's not rocket science, sounds like he has a severe case of lazyitis.

[The Food Scientist]

Not normal but I have seen it many times. They count on their employees (QA techs or specialists) to take care of things themselves and only go when its REALLY important. I am a QA manager myself but have to walk the floor DAILY almost 3 times. If the top person for QA is not knowledgeable about what's going on so what are you expecting from the QA department? Also all prod employee should be aware that the manager of QA is around them so no deviations can occur. It creates trust and better communication.

[zanorias]

Its also concerning that your manager is able to do this for a year without his/her management doing anything.

[pHruit]

+1 to kfromNE's suggestion of seeing if someone more senior can help.
I am the person to whom the QA manager reports, and would definitely want to know if they and the rest of the QA team were not making regular visits to the factory floor. I agree with Zanorias that it's a bit odd that no-one else has picked this up though. As TM I'd consider myself failing if I didn't know roughly what my team were up to. I hate micromanagement, but if I see people sat around in the office all day then I'll start asking innocent questions about how things are going in the factory

[QAGB]

As a QA Manager, I wasn't on the floor all day every day, but if there was a problem, I needed to see it firsthand to understand it and assist where needed. On the same token, I also had a good team of people that knew how to handle most of the smaller fires, so I didn't have to be out on the floor all the time.  They knew what to do and would just let me know what happened so I could make note of it. Obviously, the bigger the fire, the more I was on the floor. I'd also observe things as I passed through different areas.

 

Any QA Manager that has gone on the floor less than 10 times in a year should be ashamed of themselves. I have found that production employees do make note of those that take the time to look at what they are doing. They want to know that you actually care about what's going on, rather than sitting in an office all day. The QA Manager discussed in this thread is not a good one.

[Njaquino]

As a QA Manager, I wasn't on the floor all day every day, but if there was a problem, I needed to see it firsthand to understand it and assist where needed. On the same token, I also had a good team of people that knew how to handle most of the smaller fires, so I didn't have to be out on the floor all the time.  They knew what to do and would just let me know what happened so I could make note of it. Obviously, the bigger the fire, the more I was on the floor. I'd also observe things as I passed through different areas.

 

Any QA Manager that has gone on the floor less than 10 times in a year should be ashamed of themselves. I have found that production employees do make note of those that take the time to look at what they are doing. They want to know that you actually care about what's going on, rather than sitting in an office all day. The QA Manager discussed in this thread is not a good one.

 

I am like you where I am not on the floor every day. Right now I have been tasked with developing the whole QA program. I cannot be on the floor every day. I go on the floor when needed by our GM.

 

In my past job, same I would go on the floor 6 times a week, (2 times on three days) to do a walk quick around of the lines. Majority of my time was spent preparing for presentations, reviewing documents, and meetings. I do not expect for a QA Manager to be out all the time but they should go out to see what is going on. I would have daily check ins with my staff to see if they had issues or concerns I should be aware of. 

 

Maybe I should improve on this? I am not out 65% of my time. 

[QAGB]

I am like you where I am not on the floor every day. Right now I have been tasked with developing the whole QA program. I cannot be on the floor every day. I go on the floor when needed by our GM.

 

In my past job, same I would go on the floor 6 times a week, (2 times on three days) to do a walk quick around of the lines. Majority of my time was spent preparing for presentations, reviewing documents, and meetings. I do not expect for a QA Manager to be out all the time but they should go out to see what is going on. I would have daily check ins with my staff to see if they had issues or concerns I should be aware of. 

 

Maybe I should improve on this? I am not out 65% of my time. 

 

 

I hear you. If you do know what's going on in the facility (and are actually conducting spot checks), and your team doesn't seem to be stressed out with any perceived lack of input, I would think you're fine. As KfromNE mentioned, it really depends on your structure. I had a pretty good sized team, so we were able to split duties a lot. If I were on a smaller team, I'd have been on the floor a lot more.

 

No one ever questioned my work ethic, because there were days where I fought the fires right alongside the production crew. When all hands on deck were needed, that's what I did. If I needed to work on projects or meetings and step away from the production area for a bit, that's what I did too. It's a balance, because you can't manage office tasks and production tasks at the same time. 

 

Luckily, the way our plant was built, it was pretty easy for me to do quick sweeps and make observations as I went from area to area for different reasons.

[majoy]

So my response will be a bit different from the rest. I have a disclaimer so... nobody gets too upset...

 

I am a QA Manager so I am speaking for my position, my company structure and my process.

 

I am not on the floor everyday. I will go to the floor if I have time, this is 1-2 times in a week, maybe more if there is an issue or if I wanted to see some things that i am not too familiar with. If i have more time, i go to the floor and observe production, take with the people and ask questions. I read, review my written program, read on-line, research so we can keep up with the regulatory changes, comments on this forum etc. I also do a lot of labeling compliance and respond to A LOT of customer requests. Do i know what's happening in my production floor? heck yes!

 

I have 3 QA techs under me, each of them have their own task responsibility in the program. If there is an issue on the floor, i get told about the issue and what corrective action was done. It is an expectation and they are trained to be able to carry out sound judgement when needed. If they are unsure or there is resistance from production people, they know they can go to me and get me anytime. And i have not been called many times. I trust them and I believe they have the capacity to make a sound decision based on how i train them. If i feel that there is complacency in their task, i question them and provoke them and from there I know if they're doing their task and their job, i verify their paper works daily/weekly too and i get to ask a questions. I tell them if im not satisfied with what i'm seeing and that they needed to improve.

 

So if you're questioning your QA manager because he/she is on his desk and have gone down only less than 10 times in a year, I don't think you are in a position to do that. You can wonder, but you cannot give your judgement. Most of the time, your position or level doesn't allow you to see all the other work that the Manager is tasked to do. If you are or have been in the position, then you can tell me. Ultimately, he is responsible for the whole department, if you messed up, he will answer to the management and not you.

 

Were you trained properly to do your job? Are you doing your job? Does he provides feedback for improvement? If he interrogates you about the processes, it is because he expects that you know it and you'll give him correct responses. Maybe you're giving him wrong answers or he finds that you do not know the process well enough. There are always two perspective to all things. I wanted to show you the other side. You are only in QA for 1 year, and starting as an entry level position, there are so many things beyond you that you need to know. If you are demotivated by this, then QA is not the right job for you.

 

Your manager may have been in your position and have experienced what you have been through, maybe he was a good QA then so he got to where he is now. I believe, if he's staying on his chair, he earned it and he's paid to do more than just walk around the floor. I think you have an issue with his leadership skills, but i find it inappropriate to say that he sits on his desk and that he's no longer a good QA Manager?

 

I would be livid if i see my QA tech in the office all day and cannot answer or respond properly to me. Their job description says about 80% is production floor and 20% documentations.

 

I'm sorry your statements are getting to me as ignorant and inappropriate. I do not know your QA Manager or your company structure, nor I am defending what you're thoughts of him, but i just want to let you understand that to be in the Manager position, you have to earn it. I know you're asking for opinion to understand better, but your statements seemed that you expect your Manager to the same job as you do. Not the case my dear, he/she earned his/her position and there are perks to it.

Edited by majoy, 14 November 2019 - 07:08 PM.

[QAGB]

So my response will be a bit different from the rest. I have a disclaimer so... nobody gets too upset...

 

I am a QA Manager so I am speaking for my position, my company structure and my process.

 

I am not on the floor everyday. I will go to the floor if I have time, this is 1-2 times in a week, maybe more if there is an issue or if I wanted to see some things that i am not too familiar with. If i have more time, i go to the floor and observe production, take with the people and ask questions. I read, review my written program, read on-line, research so we can keep up with the regulatory changes, comments on this forum etc. I also do a lot of labeling compliance and respond to A LOT of customer requests. Do i know what's happening in my production floor? heck yes!

 

I have 3 QA techs under me, each of them have their own task responsibility in the program. If there is an issue on the floor, i get told about the issue and what corrective action was done. It is an expectation and they are trained to be able to carry out sound judgement when needed. If they are unsure or there is resistance from production people, they know they can go to me and get me anytime. And i have not been called many times. I trust them and I believe they have the capacity to make a sound decision based on how i train them. If i feel that there is complacency in their task, i question them and provoke them and from there I know if they're doing their task and their job, i verify their paper works daily/weekly too and i get to ask a questions. I tell them if im not satisfied with what i'm seeing and that they needed to improve.

 

So if you're questioning your QA manager because he/she is on his desk and have gone down only less than 10 times in a year, I don't think you are in a position to do that. You can wonder, but you cannot give your judgement. Most of the time, your position or level doesn't allow you to see all the other work that the Manager is tasked to do. If you are or have been in the position, then you can tell me. Ultimately, he is responsible for the whole department, if you messed up, he will answer to the management and not you.

 

Were you trained properly to do your job? Are you doing your job? Does he provides feedback for improvement? If he interrogates you about the processes, it is because he expects that you know it and you'll give him correct responses. Maybe you're giving him wrong answers or he finds that you do not know the process well enough. There are always two perspective to all things. I wanted to show you the other side. You are only in QA for 1 year, and starting as an entry level position, there are so many things beyond you that you need to know. If you are demotivated by this, then QA is not the right job for you.

 

Your manager may have been in your position and have experienced what you have been through, maybe he was a good QA then so he got to where he is now. I believe, if he's staying on his chair, he earned it and he's paid to do more than just walk around the floor. I think you have an issue with his leadership skills, but i find it inappropriate to say that he sits on his desk and that he's no longer a good QA Manager?

 

I would be livid if i see my QA tech in the office all day and cannot answer or respond properly to me. Their job description says about 80% is production floor and 20% documentations.

 

I'm sorry your statements are getting to me as ignorant and inappropriate. I do not know your QA Manager or your company structure, nor I am defending what you're thoughts of him, but i just want to let you understand that to be in the Manager position, you have to earn it. I know you're asking for opinion to understand better, but your statements seemed that you expect your Manager to the same job as you do. Not the case my dear, he/she earned his/her position and there are perks to it.

 

From QA Manager to QA Manager, I'm not really sure how to respond to this post.

 

Between yourself, NJaquino, and I, we have been in similar structures. My current role is very different than in the past, but when I worked directly in food, the 3 of us seem to have had pretty similar experiences. I was probably on the floor more than you, but it definitely wasn't to the extent of the 65% as mentioned earlier, or even 20%. 

 

I too had really good techs and specialists that could fill in for me where necessary. I trusted my people's skills. They fought the smaller fires, and I knew I didn't need to step in for those. The big fires, I was of course going to be involved in to get problems solved. 

 

I mean, it is nice to sit at the desk sometimes and breathe. We also have to manage our production involvement against all of our other management duties. I handled all of our CAPAs, customer complaints, nutritional labels, technical requests, and some customer inquiries among all the other duties and people management things that needed dealt with day-to-day. Our roles are extremely stressful, but I do think it is pretty ridiculous for a manager to have only gone on the floor at a maximum 10 times out of a year and can absolutely see why someone would be demotivated by this. I'm pretty sure I would be too. 

 

When I read the first post by the OP, they seem to be stating that the QA Manager doesn't seem fully aware of what's going on in the plant. A technician of course is going to be the person that spends the most time in the production area, but this role is not expected to know how to fight every fire, and come up with every solution. If a technician can't figure out normal solutions to problems that they should be able to address, that is a problem. Of course it is nice to understand things from everyone's POV, but I don't see the post as being ignorant or inappropriate. I understand it as legitimately being concerned about the level of input from the manager and the level of output from the manager as opposed to the technicians.

[majoy]

 

I mean, it is nice to sit at the desk sometimes and breathe. We also have to manage our production involvement against all of our other management duties. I handled all of our CAPAs, customer complaints, nutritional labels, technical requests, and some customer inquiries among all the other duties and people management things that needed dealt with day-to-day. Our roles are extremely stressful, but I do think it is pretty ridiculous for a manager to have only gone on the floor at a maximum 10 times out of a year and can absolutely see why someone would be demotivated by this. I'm pretty sure I would be too. 

 

When I read the first post by the OP, they seem to be stating that the QA Manager doesn't seem fully aware of what's going on in the plant. A technician of course is going to be the person that spends the most time in the production area, but this role is not expected to know how to fight every fire, and come up with every solution. If a technician can't figure out normal solutions to problems that they should be able to address, that is a problem. Of course it is nice to understand things from everyone's POV, but I don't see the post as being ignorant or inappropriate. I understand it as legitimately being concerned about the level of input from the manager and the level of output from the manager as opposed to the technicians.

 

The post is inappropriate to me because he is saying that his manager is "just" sitting on his desk, seems like doesn't know a thing and only on the floor less than 10 times in a year and that it follows that he is demotivated by this. The OP is kind of saying that this is not how he imagine a QA Manager would be. What is the expectation on this? He only has 1 year of QA experience and this is how he sees his superior? I get it, a bad boss is a bad boss. but...

 

The OP should know what QA Managers are actually doing to understand. The responses are mostly, "i don't sit on the desk" and "I'm not like your manager" responses and I don't want to give the OP a conviction, that yes, his manager is lazy and doesn't do anything all day, without actually knowing his Manager or their organization.

[QAGB]

The post is inappropriate to me because he is saying that his manager is "just" sitting on his desk, seems like doesn't know a thing and only on the floor less than 10 times in a year and that it follows that he is demotivated by this. The OP is kind of saying that this is not how he imagine a QA Manager would be. What is the expectation on this? He only has 1 year of QA experience and this is how he sees his superior? I get it, a bad boss is a bad boss. but...

 

The OP should know what QA Managers are actually doing to understand. The responses are mostly, "i don't sit on the desk" and "I'm not like your manager" responses and I don't want to give the OP a conviction, that yes, his manager is lazy and doesn't do anything all day, without actually knowing his Manager or their organization.

This is a valid point. I understand what you are saying - in that the OP doesn't understand what the QA Manager may be dealing with behind the scenes. Perhaps I'm viewing this differently because I worked with a tight-knit QA group. They didn't always know what I was doing, but they knew I was busy and understood most of my challenges. Maybe this manager isn't as open with their employees, and they think he's just not caring about things. I can't say.

 

I still feel the QA Manager in this case would be the exception, rather than the rule - when it comes to how much time is spent on the floor. Regardless of structure, I don't see why a Manager wouldn't spend some time on the floor.  I don't think the post is ignorant or inappropriate. They weren't asking the manager to be on the floor 80% of the day with boots on the floor, they were just wondering if it would be considered normal to spend 10 or less days on the production floor in a year. Factoring in 52 weeks a year, 5 days a week with some vacation time, this would be 4% of total workdays the QA Manager decided to take a visit to the line. One of these days should have been to walk the HACCP team through the process flow.  Legitimate question, and everyone will have a different POV for whether the manager is good or not. I would hate to discourage the OP from coming to the forum to ask questions (and vent - we all need it sometimes) by calling a reasonable question ignorant. 

[Simon]

If the QA manager is dealing with higher level items, perhaps dealing with customers, technical or product developments and is effective at managing his team delegating tasks, checking their performance and directing improvements of people, product, process, methods etc. then 10 visits to the floor in a year may well be ok.  If he sits all day eating donuts and playing candy crush, then it certainly isn’t ok.  If the former, then the OP would see and experience some of this.  From the limited information provided by the OP to me it sounds more like the latter.

[zanorias]

I think it's worth bearing in mind that quite a few assumptions are probably being made due to limited information available, and also we are only hearing one side of the story. Who's to say that this QA Manager in question isn't posting on another forum asking if it's normal to be piled with so much office work by their director that they can rarely make time to leave the desk, and asking if it's normal for their QAs to ask so many questions.

 

I don't doubt that there's an issue here - especially if it is the case that the manager doesn't know a thing about the process - though I feel we need more information at this point to learn what the scenario is and perhaps reasons behind it, before making too many conclusions. 

[pHruit]

If he sits all day eating donuts and playing candy crush, then it certainly isn’t ok. 

Simon, you've destroyed my career aspirations

[Simon]

Simon, you've destroyed my career aspirations

 

Keep striving and you'll get there mate.