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Zahn.R

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Posted 14 July 2021 - 11:00 AM

Afternoon everyone. I am so confused... Currently we are doing microbial verification post cleaning but due to opinions from different people all considering themselves microbiologists - I am very confused. Please give me your inputs so that I can improve our cleaning. Currently we analyse Enterobacteriaceae and L. mono for drains post cleaning.  Some suggested that we should do L. spp as well.  Other stated that we will always get a positive result for Entero's in drains post cleaning so it should be left out? Equipment post cleaning - we do TVC, E.coli, Coliforms, L. mono.  Again - suggestion to include L. spp?  Maybe rather test for faecal coliforms. Our product is supposed to be commercial sterile since all our processs uses heat - 70ºC to 96ºC with sterilization at the end of 104 -110ºC.  We use wet cleaning however our water comes from a raw water source so we treat our water. Our EMP consists out of S. aureus, E. coli and L. mono. Please advise? Best regards  



Scampi

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Posted 14 July 2021 - 11:38 AM

I wouldn't test drains for l mono---L spp is more than sufficient---leave the L mono for food contact surfaces

 

As for e coli--------why are you testing the drains for this out of curiosity?   

 

As you cleaning the drains and then sanitizing everything?   Need to understand your sanitation process further to really assist


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Charles.C

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Posted 14 July 2021 - 01:23 PM

Afternoon everyone

 

I am so confused...

 

Currently we are doing microbial verification post cleaning but due to opinions from different people all considering themselves microbiologists - I am very confused.

 

Please give me your inputs so that I can improve our cleaning.

 

Currently we analyse Enterobacteriaceae and L. mono for drains post cleaning.  Some suggested that we should do L. spp as well.  Other stated that we will always get a positive result for Entero's in drains post cleaning so it should be left out?

 

Equipment post cleaning - we do TVC, E.coli, Coliforms, L. mono.  Again - suggestion to include L. spp?  Maybe rather test for faecal coliforms.

 

Our product is supposed to be commercial sterile since all our processs uses heat - 70ºC to 96ºC with sterilization at the end of 104 -110ºC.  We use wet cleaning however our water comes from a raw water source so we treat our water.

 

Our EMP consists out of S. aureus, E. coli and L. mono

 

Please advise?

 

Best regards  

 

IMEX cleaning/sanitising, per se, tends to rely on indicator organisms, eg -

 

http://www.ifsqn.com...ces/#entry60958

 

EMPG typically uses zoning and includes pathogens like L.mono, Salmonella,eg -

 

http://www.ifsqn.com...ls/#entry100060

 

There are dozens of illustrative threads on this Forum.


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


Zahn.R

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Posted 15 July 2021 - 01:23 PM

For both equipment and drains I was told by category management to include this in my programme without a clear explanation - just got an answer that it was requested from top management.  I started to request sampling plans from another factory or two and they only do enteros on food contact surfaces.  We need to cut down costs and I dont want to analyse for micro that is not justifiable.  We have several micro people in the company, all with different views which complicates it even more, which is why I now resorted to this platform.  

 

 

I wouldn't test drains for l mono---L spp is more than sufficient---leave the L mono for food contact surfaces

 

As for e coli--------why are you testing the drains for this out of curiosity?   

 

As you cleaning the drains and then sanitizing everything?   Need to understand your sanitation process further to really assist



Charles.C

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Posted 15 July 2021 - 01:52 PM

For both equipment and drains I was told by category management to include this in my programme without a clear explanation - just got an answer that it was requested from top management.  I started to request sampling plans from another factory or two and they only do enteros on food contact surfaces.  We need to cut down costs and I dont want to analyse for micro that is not justifiable.  We have several micro people in the company, all with different views which complicates it even more, which is why I now resorted to this platform.  

 

Hi Elizabeth,

 

Unfortunately even in the published Literature you can find examples of inclusion/exclusion of drains.

 

Personally I agree with Scampi unless there is some particular risk, eg cross-contamination, associated with yr drainage design. EMPG programs are supposed to be "risk-based".


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


dzabhi

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Posted 15 July 2021 - 03:19 PM

I agree with Scampi on drains, only Listeria spp. is needed but upon detection the lab should be contracted to enumerate as standard.

For equipment post clean I would test for TVC, listeria (if low risk environment then it would be listeria mono. and if high care/risk then it should be listeria spp. due to low risk environments never being free of listeria), enteros (or coliforms depending on the environment) and e.coli. If you have a labour intensive process then you may add Staph aureus to it as well but from what you said initially i doubt that is needed.

 

Hope that helps.

Danny



Zahn.R

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Posted 15 July 2021 - 03:41 PM

Thank you very much for the input.  Our product is relatively low risk.  I will follow a risk based approach and see where it will lead me.  For some kind of reason I struggle to find literature around cleaning verification.  



dzabhi

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Posted 15 July 2021 - 04:07 PM

Thank you very much for the input.  Our product is relatively low risk.  I will follow a risk based approach and see where it will lead me.  For some kind of reason I struggle to find literature around cleaning verification.  

Try searching for hygiene indicators within the well circulated food microbiology texts. I find IFST Microbiological Criteria of Foods is a good and simple one that a lot of the industry use as a basis for their own testing criteria (and you should be able to download a PDF of the book for free on some sites).

Public Health England have a good guide as well - "Guidelines for assessing the microbiological safety of ready to eat foods on the market". Then read the sections on hygiene indicators

 

Failing that, ask you lab for guidance as they are the experts and should be able to work with you on setting suitable criteria for testing.






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