Jump to content

  • Quick Navigation
Photo

Salmonella in Raw Chicken Sausage

Share this

  • You cannot start a new topic
  • Please log in to reply
12 replies to this topic

Sjoynesfoodsafety

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Active
  • 18 posts
  • 0 thanks
0
Neutral

  • Earth
    Earth

Posted 23 December 2024 - 06:34 PM

I am at a loss here. We are a producer of sausage(s) of many types, raw chicken sausage is one of the proteins classification. We receive chicken (boneless, skinless thighs) and grind, mix and stuff the chicken into sausage. The raw chicken is being sourced from a supplier who has not had a positive salmonella test in 6 mo. HOWEVER we are getting hits on our raw, ground product. 

 

a. Can not be found the product ran prior to the chicken, as that comes back negative.

b. Tested positive both before stuffing and after.

c. Other ingredients have also been tested and not found to be contaminated. 

 

Question(s): Could this still be coming from the chicken?  USDA is saying that we need to state the hazard control when temperature and SSOP is not controlling it. Is the cooking instruction enough to cover this and if so should that we stated in the HACCP plan?

 

Thank you in advance!  :x_smile:  :x_biggrin:  :santa:

 

 


  • 0

kfromNE

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 1,178 posts
  • 315 thanks
361
Excellent

  • United States
    United States
  • Gender:Female
  • Interests:Bicycling, reading, nutrition, trivia

Posted 23 December 2024 - 08:12 PM

I am at a loss here. We are a producer of sausage(s) of many types, raw chicken sausage is one of the proteins classification. We receive chicken (boneless, skinless thighs) and grind, mix and stuff the chicken into sausage. The raw chicken is being sourced from a supplier who has not had a positive salmonella test in 6 mo. HOWEVER we are getting hits on our raw, ground product. 

 

a. Can not be found the product ran prior to the chicken, as that comes back negative.

b. Tested positive both before stuffing and after.

c. Other ingredients have also been tested and not found to be contaminated. 

 

Question(s): Could this still be coming from the chicken?  USDA is saying that we need to state the hazard control when temperature and SSOP is not controlling it. Is the cooking instruction enough to cover this and if so should that we stated in the HACCP plan?

 

Thank you in advance!  :x_smile:  :x_biggrin:  :santa:

 

Just because it didn't test positive at the plant you received it at - it could still be positive at your plant. We do mirror chicken samples with the inspector. Sometimes their sample comes back positive and ours negative or vice versus. In a load of chicken - there will be chicken that tests positive and negative.  

 

Cooking should control it however due to the new Salmonella rules coming out soon - that won't be good enough in the future. The rule isn't finalized so not sure exactly how it will read. 

 

You could check transportation or your process. Salmonella can be present at very low levels/non-detectable but then be detectable depending on the temperature. 

 

Another possibility - your equipment could be contaminated too. Like in your grinder etc. Since you make non-RTE product, you are not required to do environmental species testing. You could though. I would do Enterobacteriaceae vs. actual species.  


Edited by kfromNE, 23 December 2024 - 08:16 PM.

  • 0

Thanked by 1 Member:

kfromNE

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 1,178 posts
  • 315 thanks
361
Excellent

  • United States
    United States
  • Gender:Female
  • Interests:Bicycling, reading, nutrition, trivia

Posted 24 December 2024 - 01:35 PM

For the USDA. Re-evaluate your cleaning process - so SSOPs. You could even consult with your chemical rep to make sure you are doing everything correctly. 

Have them come in and evaluate your process. 


  • 0

Thanked by 1 Member:

PrplomSolved

    Grade - MIFSQN

  • IFSQN Member
  • 63 posts
  • 2 thanks
13
Good

  • United States
    United States
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Athens, GA

Posted 26 December 2024 - 09:54 PM

I am at a loss here. We are a producer of sausage(s) of many types, raw chicken sausage is one of the proteins classification. We receive chicken (boneless, skinless thighs) and grind, mix and stuff the chicken into sausage. The raw chicken is being sourced from a supplier who has not had a positive salmonella test in 6 mo. HOWEVER we are getting hits on our raw, ground product. 

 

a. Can not be found the product ran prior to the chicken, as that comes back negative.

b. Tested positive both before stuffing and after.

c. Other ingredients have also been tested and not found to be contaminated. 

 

Question(s): Could this still be coming from the chicken?  USDA is saying that we need to state the hazard control when temperature and SSOP is not controlling it. Is the cooking instruction enough to cover this and if so should that we stated in the HACCP plan?

 

Thank you in advance!  :x_smile:  :x_biggrin:  :santa:

 

Considering the USDA poultry processing category ratings are on a rotating year, you could have the cleanest 6 months in facility history and still be a category 3 plant. This is public information on the USDA publication site: https://www.fsis.usd...ts/publications (Salmonella Verification Testing). Additionally, grinds are comminuted for a reason, was likely already contaminated. How does your laboratory processes differ from theirs? It could be dependent on methodology, too.

 

I'm a bit confused by your second question but I primarily work in a poultry testing laboratory, not at the plant level.


  • 0

Austin N.

Principal Laboratory Technician 

AEMTEK Athens


Scampi

    Fellow

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 5,897 posts
  • 1598 thanks
1,775
Excellent

  • Canada
    Canada
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 27 December 2024 - 02:10 PM

a. Can not be found the product ran prior to the chicken, as that comes back negative. FOR THAT PARTICULAR SAMPLE---HOW ARE SAMPLES COLLECTED AND HOW MANY LBS ARE IN A LOT YOU RECEIVE

 

b. Tested positive both before stuffing and after. SEE NOTE ABOVE-SAME APPLIES

 

c. Other ingredients have also been tested and not found to be contaminated. DID YOU TEST THE INGREDIENTS IN A BATCH WITHOUT THE CHICKEN? THIS WOULD HELP TO CONFIRM IF ITS THE CHICKEN OR THE EQUIPMENT

 

What is your current process for cleaning? Can you post a summary of the steps and chemicals used

 

What temperature is the chicken at receiving and what conditions is it shipped under

What temperature is it stored at in your cooler


  • 0

Please stop referring to me as Sir/sirs


Sjoynesfoodsafety

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Active
  • 18 posts
  • 0 thanks
0
Neutral

  • Earth
    Earth

Posted 30 December 2024 - 12:51 PM

Please see purple.

 

a. Can not be found the product ran prior to the chicken, as that comes back negative. FOR THAT PARTICULAR SAMPLE---HOW ARE SAMPLES COLLECTED AND HOW MANY LBS ARE IN A LOT YOU RECEIVE. This is for the USDA so we are pulling 2lbs of ground (right from the grinder) or 2lbs of sausage from the stuffer. 

 

b. Tested positive both before stuffing and after. SEE NOTE ABOVE-SAME APPLIES Yes, Note any Turkey ran prior to the chicken comes back negative. (no wash between Turkey and chicken). 

 

c. Other ingredients have also been tested and not found to be contaminated. DID YOU TEST THE INGREDIENTS IN A BATCH WITHOUT THE CHICKEN? THIS WOULD HELP TO CONFIRM IF ITS THE CHICKEN OR THE EQUIPMENT. As this is a USDA sampling we have only tested the turkey and protein. The way we are set up is that we grind Turkey then chicken in the same grinder. We mix our batches in a different mixer then those batches get moved to a stuffer. (3 different machines). Chicken has tested positive without other ingredients and with ingredients.

 

What is your current process for cleaning? Can you post a summary of the steps and chemicals used. We follow the 7 sets. Dry pick-up, hot water rinse, scrub, soap(Indco LA12), rinse and sanitizer(citric acid oxine mix). 

 

What temperature is the chicken at receiving and what conditions is it shipped under. Under 20, shipped refrigerated. 

What temperature is it stored at in your cooler. Stored in 30 or lower.

 


  • 0

Sjoynesfoodsafety

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Active
  • 18 posts
  • 0 thanks
0
Neutral

  • Earth
    Earth

Posted 30 December 2024 - 01:00 PM

Sorry for the confusion. Our supplier has had the 6mo negative testing not us. 

 

The 2nd note was regarding our scheduling process. We grind the turkey items prior to the chicken and this ALWAYS comes back negative. 

 

The Chicken is received from a company that is category 1 and uses the normal testing that the USDA requires at that stage. 

 

I am trying to verify that if there is no wash down between turkey (negative) then chicken (positive) it is unlikely for the equipment to be the source. 

 

 

 

 

Considering the USDA poultry processing category ratings are on a rotating year, you could have the cleanest 6 months in facility history and still be a category 3 plant. This is public information on the USDA publication site: https://www.fsis.usd...ts/publications (Salmonella Verification Testing). Additionally, grinds are comminuted for a reason, was likely already contaminated. How does your laboratory processes differ from theirs? It could be dependent on methodology, too.

 

I'm a bit confused by your second question but I primarily work in a poultry testing laboratory, not at the plant level.


  • 0

Sjoynesfoodsafety

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Active
  • 18 posts
  • 0 thanks
0
Neutral

  • Earth
    Earth

Posted 30 December 2024 - 01:03 PM

We are trying to verify that it is not our cleaning process that is the problem as there is no washdown between Turkey (always negative) and chicken is always positive. Isn't it unlikely that the source is from the equipment that is used for both? 

 

 

 

For the USDA. Re-evaluate your cleaning process - so SSOPs. You could even consult with your chemical rep to make sure you are doing everything correctly. 

Have them come in and evaluate your process. 


  • 0

kfromNE

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 1,178 posts
  • 315 thanks
361
Excellent

  • United States
    United States
  • Gender:Female
  • Interests:Bicycling, reading, nutrition, trivia

Posted 30 December 2024 - 02:48 PM

To satisfy the USDA, contact the land grant university in your state. Find the expert in poultry processing. Ask them the question and to give you possible answers. 

 

Then show the USDA what they said. 

 

The professors at the university who have an extension component - part of their contract is to support the community, including food companies. So it will be done for free. Note: Universities work similar to the government and correspondence times. So when emailing and hearing back - wait a week before emailing again. 

 

To find the right professor - go to the meat science faculty page at the University and search that way or email/call the secretary of  the meat science department and ask them. 


  • 1

Sjoynesfoodsafety

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Active
  • 18 posts
  • 0 thanks
0
Neutral

  • Earth
    Earth

Posted 30 December 2024 - 03:19 PM

Thank you! I will defiantly try. 

 

 

To satisfy the USDA, contact the land grant university in your state. Find the expert in poultry processing. Ask them the question and to give you possible answers. 

 

Then show the USDA what they said. 

 

The professors at the university who have an extension component - part of their contract is to support the community, including food companies. So it will be done for free. Note: Universities work similar to the government and correspondence times. So when emailing and hearing back - wait a week before emailing again. 

 

To find the right professor - go to the meat science faculty page at the University and search that way or email/call the secretary of  the meat science department and ask them. 


  • 0

Scampi

    Fellow

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 5,897 posts
  • 1598 thanks
1,775
Excellent

  • Canada
    Canada
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 30 December 2024 - 05:40 PM

Based on what your telling me, I would be questioning the sampling frequency and technique at your supplier

 

Have you tried using AQL sample size on the chicken PRIOR to blending?   It would be the fastest way to see what the issue is (again based on the info you've provided)

 

Given that USDA allows between 9.8 and 13.4% + salmonella , it's should be NO surprise that you've had product that tests positive

 

AND that is based on a moving window average which means

 

Also to note: based on the performance standard, a cat 1 facility only has to test a minimum of 11 in a 52 week window   I'd be asking just how many they actually do


  • 0

Please stop referring to me as Sir/sirs


Thanked by 1 Member:

GMO

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 3,031 posts
  • 753 thanks
294
Excellent

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom

Posted 30 January 2025 - 02:43 PM

There is something really interesting about the fact you're grinding it up which I'm not sure has been mentioned above.

 

Imagine a batch of chicken.  Perhaps one piece has Salmonella spp on it.  For the supplier to find it, they will have to find that piece of chicken and test where the pathogen is on that piece.

 

Now think about your process.  I'm imagining some bowl choppers, sorry for the metric but I'm imagining you're putting in, say, 40kg of chicken thighs into that bowl chopper.  Then you're tipping it into a tote bin and putting it through something like a Vemag machine to extrude into skins.  If it's not that process then it's probably going to be similar right?

 

I'm guessing you're not cleaning your bowl chopper until the end of the run and conservatively, let's make our run 5 batches (mostly to keep the maths easy).

 

So in total you now have 200kg of chicken thighs which have gone through the bowl chopper.  And in that process, you're going to add in a bit of heat.  Not deliberately but inevitably because of the friction of the process you have.  So any pathogen presence has the chance to multiply.

 

So using nothing more scientific than a photo on the Walmart website (I'm wary of using British chickens to compare with this, as we tend to kill them when smaller) a chicken thigh seems to weigh about 160g or so.  

 

In your 200kg of chicken thighs, you will then have about 1,250 individual thighs.

 

So your sample, especially if taken towards the end of the run is equivalent to a composite of over 1000 of their samples.  No wonder you will find it more often.  There is no way they are testing that much, am I right?

 

What's more is if you have one piece which is really grossly contaminated, the pathogens will then get dispersed to lots of lovely new food source without waste products etc.  So what is likely to happen is an uplift in growth rate independent of the temperature.

Sorry that was quite long winded.  But basically if you want to explain this, it's a combination of maths and the sampling method of the original material which can never be anywhere near the level of your product.  You will always have a problem here in my opinion at least from time to time.  To achieve the levels you want in your product, the supply is going to have to be super squeaky clean, I'd also encourage regular batch breaks, applying cooling on your process and regular break full cleans in your plant.  (Also I'm not sure re US legislation on speciation but I'd never run from one species to another without cleaning.)  

 

There are two other areas of investigation which I am going to share, but I don't think it's the cause in your case albeit just for your consideration to rule in or out.  Machinery being the root cause of contamination can occur and can show up negatively in early batches.  This is where there is water trapped deep in the machine which then leaches out very slowly during running.  I've seen it happen with early batches passing and late in the day batches failing.  As chicken in so synonymous with Salmonella, I still doubt it, but mentioning it for completion.  If you have this kind of issue, using steam has been something I've seen and used to help at least "cook" residues deep in the machine short term but longer term you'd probably need some kind of repairs or replacement.  It might be worth getting a full strip down PPM done on one of your machines you use to grind the meat just to see if there is debris, water etc getting deep within the machine.

 

My last suggestion, I am not sure if it's going to go down well with US companies.  I've used either full genome sequencing or multi locus sequence typing before to help link with some pathogens.  This may be worth looking at here.  BUT my only two warnings are firstly, it's expensive and secondly it only shows you that the pathogens are linked, not how they're linked.  So for example, if you find debris inside your bowl chopper or grinder which tests positive for Salmonellae and then you keep getting the same strain repeatedly, it could indicate it's your machine which is contaminated.  Or it could indicate a harbourage problem in the evisceration plant.  Or it could indicate endemic Salmonellae from one farm.  But from US legislation having a WGS which links a certain Salmonellae strain to your plant I'd imagine would go down very badly with your leaders but the idea is out there.  In this case though, even in the UK, I'd hold out and work with the supplier and shorten runs first.


  • 0

************************************************

25 years in food.  And it never gets easier.


G M

    Grade - PIFSQN

  • IFSQN Principal
  • 800 posts
  • 156 thanks
261
Excellent

  • United States
    United States
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 January 2025 - 04:03 PM

We are trying to verify that it is not our cleaning process that is the problem as there is no washdown between Turkey (always negative) and chicken is always positive. Isn't it unlikely that the source is from the equipment that is used for both? 

 

 

...Also I'm not sure re US legislation on speciation but I'd never run from one species to another without cleaning....

 

It should absolutely be cleaned between species.  I'm surprised their inspector hasn't caught this.  Not doing so will count as both being adulterated and misbranded, presuming the labeling only lists one of the poultry species in the ingredients and product name.

 

 

https://ask.usda.gov...han-one-species


  • 0



Share this


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users