13 replies to this topic

[Foodprep]

Hello, 

 

Clostridium perfringens and b. cereus are the two organisms of concern for products we manufacture, vegetable & meat soups and some grain based items. These products are hot filled creating modified/anaerobic environment in the package. 

 

My question is that our lab takes 4 days to provide results for clostridium, i think similar timeline for bacillus. they don't have a rapid method. My company isn't very happy to hold the product for 4 days until lab results are received. I tried predictive modelling programs but most of them are for cooked cured/uncured meat (whole muscle i believe). I am unsure if I can use the database for meat to determine safety of soup samples so I can speed the product release? I am unable to find model for soup for clostridium perfringens. 

 

I am wondering how you deal with these situations where product needs to be held for a long time but company insists that they have deadlines? 

 

Kay 

[G M]

Explain the risk to them clearly.  If some executive wants to accept that risk in order to meet customer satisfaction goals or whatever, get the food safety program override approval from them in writing.  You should follow your written release procedure if they aren't willing to sign off on a deviation.

 

It's interesting how often some people want basic safety protocols overridden, but aren't willing to be the one who puts their name on the record overriding it.

[Scampi]

I have so many questions!

 

Hot filled and held? Hot filled and pressure canned?  Etc etc etc  shelf stable or sold refrigerated?

[Scampi]

 

 

My question is that our lab takes 4 days to provide results for clostridium, i think similar timeline for bacillus. they don't have a rapid method. My company isn't very happy to hold the product for 4 days until lab results are received. I tried predictive modelling programs but most of them are for cooked cured/uncured meat (whole muscle i believe). I am unsure if I can use the database for meat to determine safety of soup samples so I can speed the product release? I am unable to find model for soup for clostridium perfringens. 

 

No you cannot, not the same risks etc etc etc

 

[Foodprep]

I have so many questions!

 

Hot filled and held? Hot filled and pressure canned?  Etc etc etc  shelf stable or sold refrigerated?

Hot filled and refrigerated. Not shelf stable, sold refrigerated. No pressure, no canning. soup gets filled in the pouches and the pouches/ bags are sealed. we manually expel air out of the big bags so that they are easier to pack otherwise they are like pillows when cold, so hard to fit in the box. 

[Foodprep]

 

 

 

My question is that our lab takes 4 days to provide results for clostridium, i think similar timeline for bacillus. they don't have a rapid method. My company isn't very happy to hold the product for 4 days until lab results are received. I tried predictive modelling programs but most of them are for cooked cured/uncured meat (whole muscle i believe). I am unsure if I can use the database for meat to determine safety of soup samples so I can speed the product release? I am unable to find model for soup for clostridium perfringens. 

 

No you cannot, not the same risks etc etc etc

 

 

I thought so because soup is a liquid medium vs semi solid for muscle and it will be easier for bacteria to grow and spread in liquid medium, also easier access to nutrients. 

 

I think I can present them the option to re-cook and cool which will take 2 days vs 4. 

 

Oh another question for you, I am thinking of collecting 1 sample every hour of production and perform composite testing for bacillus or perfringens. we produce roughly 60 samples per hour. I don't know the precise science behind number of samples needed for collection but based on my previous experience this should be enough. 

[Foodprep]

Explain the risk to them clearly.  If some executive wants to accept that risk in order to meet customer satisfaction goals or whatever, get the food safety program override approval from them in writing.  You should follow your written release procedure if they aren't willing to sign off on a deviation.

 

It's interesting how often some people want basic safety protocols overridden, but aren't willing to be the one who puts their name on the record overriding it.

appreciate your insight. I think that's a great way to approach tricky situations like this. 

[GMO]

Ok as often on here, I'm going to come in with a left of field question.  Is it relevant?  

 

• Clostridium perfringens will not grow below 15oC.  And depending on your soup you may also be outside of the pH range as well.
• Bacillus cereus could grow slowly at fridge temperatures but isn't producing a toxin.

 

So why do you think either are a significant hazard, significant enough to be positive released on that basis?  

 

It's common for chilled food items to not be held pending positive release results in the UK mostly because their shelf life doesn't warrant it.  But that's the point of HACCP, you design into your process and product enough safety that the testing regime is verification of that programme not a release criterion.  

 

It's probably pretty low risk but still I'd also be testing for Listeria spp. which is a facultative anaerobe.  Unlikely to be surviving your cooking and hot fill but you never know and as it is the one which can cause problems in fridge temperatures, that's the one I'd be most panicky about if it came back positives.  I'd be surprised if you ever get positives on the other two, or if you do it would be extremely rare and low counts.

 

That said, depending on shelf life (e.g. if over 10 days) and you genuinely believe the spore risk is real, it would be worth considering the risk of C. botulinum.  Again pH dependent and would probably require a 90oC / 10 min cook pre fill if you're going over that.  There is a great tool from the Chilled Food Association in the UK which I'm not sure if you have access to.  Modelling is included.  Might be worth reaching out to them to see if there's a similar Canadian organisation who can support.

Edited by GMO, 30 January 2025 - 08:22 AM.

[Foodprep]

Ok as often on here, I'm going to come in with a left of field question.  Is it relevant?  

 

• Clostridium perfringens will not grow below 15oC.  And depending on your soup you may also be outside of the pH range as well.
• Bacillus cereus could grow slowly at fridge temperatures but isn't producing a toxin.

 

So why do you think either are a significant hazard, significant enough to be positive released on that basis?  

 

It's common for chilled food items to not be held pending positive release results in the UK mostly because their shelf life doesn't warrant it.  But that's the point of HACCP, you design into your process and product enough safety that the testing regime is verification of that programme not a release criterion.  

 

It's probably pretty low risk but still I'd also be testing for Listeria spp. which is a facultative anaerobe.  Unlikely to be surviving your cooking and hot fill but you never know and as it is the one which can cause problems in fridge temperatures, that's the one I'd be most panicky about if it came back positives.  I'd be surprised if you ever get positives on the other two, or if you do it would be extremely rare and low counts.

 

That said, depending on shelf life (e.g. if over 10 days) and you genuinely believe the spore risk is real, it would be worth considering the risk of C. botulinum.  Again pH dependent and would probably require a 90oC / 10 min cook pre fill if you're going over that.  There is a great tool from the Chilled Food Association in the UK which I'm not sure if you have access to.  Modelling is included.  Might be worth reaching out to them to see if there's a similar Canadian organisation who can support.

 

I think the relevance comes from the fact that our processing isn't designed to eliminate spores even though we cook at high temperatures.

Our shelf life is around 4 months. Except for some tomato soups, the pH values are usually over 5.

 

I think I missed to mention an important point that micro test is triggered from a failed cooling CCP. On a regular basis, our release is not test dependent. 

[GMO]

I think the relevance comes from the fact that our processing isn't designed to eliminate spores even though we cook at high temperatures.

Our shelf life is around 4 months. Except for some tomato soups, the pH values are usually over 5.

 

I think I missed to mention an important point that micro test is triggered from a failed cooling CCP. On a regular basis, our release is not test dependent. 

 

Makes more sense... but then your HACCP plan is failing.  What is stopping you fixing the cooling issues?  What are the root causes for this failure?  That's a requirement of your HACCP plan that you understand why and put in preventive actions...

[Foodprep]

Makes more sense... but then your HACCP plan is failing.  What is stopping you fixing the cooling issues?  What are the root causes for this failure?  That's a requirement of your HACCP plan that you understand why and put in preventive actions...

 

Yes, I have another post about that. I see your contribution to that post as well. I have a few ideas now to fix it :)

 

Appreciate your time. 

[AZuzack]

Combase has broth models.  I feel like I've seen other non-meat models but I no longer work with RTE chilled products so I don't have that in front of me any more.  

 

Yes, if you fail a CCP then you need to do testing OR work on completing a GAP analysis showing that if the SOUP meets GAP 1 scenario in Appendix B of USDA that in addition to the Broth models showing acceptable growth, you have all this testing showing no growth.  

[AZuzack]

I don't know if your company makes any meat products (chicken soup) but if it is, then join this women's networking group and enroll in the Mentor program.  

https://wmin.org/

 

I have an amazing Mentor to help with BRCGS certification.  

[Foodprep]

I don't know if your company makes any meat products (chicken soup) but if it is, then join this women's networking group and enroll in the Mentor program.  

https://wmin.org/

 

I have an amazing Mentor to help with BRCGS certification.  

 

Yes, we have chicken soup.

 

Enrolled.