21 replies to this topic

[RUPALI SAXENA]

In the less developed countries ,food safety is still in a nacent stage.The laws of such lands do not emphasise enough on the food safety issues.many incidences of food poisoning go unnoticed,unreported .there is a huge unawareness which is very scary.

Edited by RUPALI SAXENA, 23 January 2005 - 03:30 PM.

[Simon]

Hi Rupali,

In answer to your question 'Yes' food safety is important to a five star hotel; in fact the number of stars is irrelevant. As a customer I would expect to see a difference in service levels and the range and quality of the food offered, but food safety should never be compromised - stars or no stars.

Rupali can you expand on your comments, are they based on personal experience. Do you work in a five star hotel? Are you in the process of trying to raise food safety awareness?

If you can tell us a bit more about your position and what you are trying to achieve we may be able to provide more directed advice.

Regards,
Simon

[Amanda32]

Yes you're right the number of starts is irrelevant.

The law says that all food handlers have to have some food hygiene training relevant to their work activity.

I'm a HR manager at a 4 star hotel (I'd better not say which one) but we get all our staff a food hygiene certificate as part of their induction program in their first week. They all do it online at www.food-certificate.co.uk and we get the certificates sent to the hotel so that we've got proof that we comply with the law.

Amanda

[Charles.C]

Dear Amanda,

Very nice link (didn't know that such an on-line course existed) and welcome to the forum

I only hope yr's and Simon's (2005) theorised uniformly high safety standards are better observed in hotels than seems to be the case for restaurants as based on various news items occasionally found here. Don't seem to see so many reports of incidents in hotels but not too sure what that means (I hv a suspicious nature).

Best Regards / Charles.C

[YongYM]

Dear Rupali:

I think it is very important.

Please visualise a newly-wed couple having their honey moon at that particular hotel but ends up being hospitalised because of Salmonellosis or etc....


Yong

[Jean]

Hi,

I agree with Simon and Amanda, its not the matter of stars the hotel has, but the food served to the public by any service or retail sector should be safe and wholesome. I would say even a small restaurant or cafe should have a food safety system.

I work for a 5 star hotel and we have a food safety system in place and all the food handlers ( service staff, chefs, stewards, receiving agent, stores persons; including the maintenance workers who work in the food preparartion or handling areas) are given basic food hygiene.

This makes a lot of difference. It creates an awareness which can improve the hygiene practices followed by the hotel staff, when they prepare or serve food to any customer.

In my experience most of the time the staff are not aware of the reason behind every rules with respect to food safety like, why should frozen foods be thawed completely or why should they report of any sickness in their home or family or why should hands be washed frequenly etc......many staff had asked me the reason for these rules..

Moreover this will help to comply with the law and may be of help for due diligence.

Regards,

J

[Simon]

why should frozen foods be thawed completely...

Excuse my ignorance, but can somebody tell me why the above is so. For example if I have some frozen chicken breasts that say I'm going to use in a casserole, but they are not properly thawed out before cooking. Is there a problem?

[Charles.C]

Dear Simon,

Hv never cooked objects much bigger than chili con carne but …
Presumably raw chicken ? Not particularly thick ?? Not crammed into the dish ??
Typical probability of presence Salmonella around 1-5% maybe ??(just guessing) + other entities (eg campylobacter) ??.

No idea regarding flavour consequences but from a microbiological viewpoint, need sufficient time for proper cooking (core temp/time). Frozen presumably requires more than thawed although if your’re talking about simmering for many hours, it probably doesn’t make much difference unless you have a very thick piece.


Now the forum cooks can give the official answer .

Rgds / Charles.C

PS What does it say on the label ?

[Simon]

Hv never cooked objects much bigger than chili con carne but …
Presumably raw chicken ? Not particularly thick ?? Not crammed into the dish ??
Typical probability of presence Salmonella around 1-5% maybe ??(just guessing) + other species ??.

No idea regarding flavour consequences but from a microbiological viewpoint, need sufficient time for proper cooking (core temp/time). Frozen presumably requires more than thawed although if your’re talking about simmering for many hours, it probably doesn’t make much difference unless you have a very thick piece.

Thanks Charles. It's as I thought the warning is to ensure the chicken is cooked through properly and if still a bit frozen this would take longer than normal. Inadequate thawing is not a problem in itself. It's a disagreement my mother and I have always had. Now I have unequivocal proof. Cooking is the CCP.

PS What does it say on the label ?

“may contain traces of nuts!”

[Jean]

Dear Simon,

Small portions of raw meat may be cooked without thawing but large portions must be thawed completely as the temperatures may allow the growth of bacteria and the production of toxins that will not be destroyed by the cooking process. In other words, if the inside is still frozen for (large portions), then the pathogens (Salmonella, Campylobacter) will survive in the areas where the ice crystals have melted during the normal cooking (temp/time) process.

BR,

J

[Simon]

Dear Simon,

Small portions of raw meat may be cooked without thawing but large portions must be thawed completely as the temperatures may allow the growth of bacteria and the production of toxins that will not be destroyed by the cooking process. In other words, if the inside is still frozen for (large portions), then the pathogens (Salmonella, Campylobacter) will survive in the areas where the ice crystals have melted during the normal cooking (temp/time) process.

BR,

J

I'm confused now. If cooked thoroughly are all pathogens destroyed? Are we just saying that if the meat is still frozen cooking could take a lot longer and you may get the timing wrong, therefore increasing hte risk?

Regards,
Simon

[Jean]

I'm confused now. If cooked thoroughly are all pathogens destroyed? Are we just saying that if the meat is still frozen cooking could take a lot longer and you may get the timing wrong, therefore increasing hte risk?

Cooking is a heat treatment process which destroys the vegetative cells of the pathogens or reduces it to an acceptable or safe level (spores are not eliminated).
Exactly, if the meat is frozen the cooking takes a longer time and the risks for food poisoning.

I found this from Food Safety Network written by Dr. Peter Synder

{Cooking the turkey from the frozen state.
A very safe practice is to cook the turkey from the frozen state. Use the same oven temperature, 325F. Take off the plastic wrap. Cook it in the roasting pan, covered. After about 1 1/2 hours in the oven, the bird will be thawed. It will be hot on the outside, so use rubber gloves to handle the bird. You need to remove the giblets, neck, etc. Then, put the turkey back in the pan, cover, and roast as for a thawed turkey. The end temperature is the same, 150F for 1 minute.}

http://www.foodsafet...e...c=38&id=116


Regards,

J

[Penard]

Dear all,

Agree with Jean, nothing to add.

Just one question : when you have to cook frozen big pieces for instance and you don't have time to thaw them, what do you say your employees? Do you refuse to serve your customers?

Regards,

Emmanuel.

[Bobby]

Jean& Simon,
If big birds like turkey are not adequately thawed, the inner portion of the meat may not get cooked properly and vegetative cells can survive. The outer surface of the bird will get fully cooked due to exposure to heat where as the frozen inner portion will reamain uncooked.
It is important that all portions of the meat get to 66 Deg C; and thawing enhances faster and uniform cooking.

Bobby krishna

[Bobby]

Dear all,

Agree with Jean, nothing to add.

Just one question : when you have to cook frozen big pieces for instance and you don't have time to thaw them, what do you say your employees? Do you refuse to serve your customers?

Regards,

Emmanuel.

You just have to ensure that the thickest portion of the meat gets to around 70 Deg C.
Be careful when deep frying, because outer side will get cooked much faster if the oil temperature is very high whereas the inner side will remain uncooked. The outer surface may harden and dry out very fast due to exposure to high temperature and prevent heat penetration into the meat.

[Bobby]

I'm confused now. If cooked thoroughly are all pathogens destroyed? Are we just saying that if the meat is still frozen cooking could take a lot longer and you may get the timing wrong, therefore increasing hte risk?

Regards,
Simon

The hazard associated with slow cooking is germination of spores of clostridium perfringens. When the meat is held at around 50 Deg C for a long time, most of the vegetative cells are destroyed, but spores of cl. perfringens start to germinate. They can multiply very slowly at that temperature. but,it takes a long time to reach numbers that could make some one sick!

Bobby

[Jean]

Dear All,

I agree with Bobby that raw poultry / meat products should be thawed completely before cooking.

Regards,

J

[Charles.C]

Dear All.

Lots of fascinating information.

To reprise, seems there are basically 3 questions under discussion (from an operational viewpoint) -
1. to thaw, or not to thaw before cooking?
2. if thaw, how should it be done ?
3. how to properly cook following thaw / not thaw ?

In fact, these questions (and related) occur in a large number of places on IT with considerable differences in opinion on all 3.

The majority opinions seem to be - 1. thaw, 2. in refrigerator, 3. minimum 70 -80degC internal at “thickest” point.
Quite a few strong viewpoints for both options to 1 (see links below).
Particularly strong opinions pro and con regarding use of water for 2. - due difficulty keeping temp.down I guess. One person used warm water to speed things up?! Microwave defrosting / partial cooking seems quite popular also.
Various temperatures recommended for 3. particularly depending on presentation, , eg breast, thigh, whole, stuffed, bone-in/out. I wonder how many kitchens in UK have a meat thermometer ? Also various organoleptic evaluation opinions regarding meat colour, liquid appearance and sound.

Interestingly, seems very few comments regarding the additional risk from spores as already discussed here. Maybe considered information overload.?

Some useful links –

http://www.fsis.usda...Focus/index.asp

http://www.jamieoliv...ic.php?id=28885

http://answers.yahoo...17190510AA943C2

http://www.metro.ca/...rgelees.en.html

Rgds / Charles.C

[Simon]

I would just like to echo the comments made from Charles on what a great debate we have here. It's a little off the original thread topic, but fascinating nevertheless. Thanks to all of you for your input, I'm certainly learning a lot.

Anyway...over to Charles.

To reprise, seems there are basically 3 questions under discussion (from an operational viewpoint) -
1. to thaw, or not to thaw before cooking?
2. if thaw, how should it be done ?
3. how to properly cook following thaw / not thaw ?

Regards,
Simon

[Bobby]

Dear All.

Lots of fascinating information.

To reprise, seems there are basically 3 questions under discussion (from an operational viewpoint) -
1. to thaw, or not to thaw before cooking?
2. if thaw, how should it be done ?
3. how to properly cook following thaw / not thaw ?


Rgds / Charles.C

1. Not necessary, but preferable, reduces the chance of undercooking
2. Preferably in refrigerator, but other methods can be used as well. Thawing in refrigerator is time consuming and not practical at all times in retail sector. Thawing method does not have any impact on food safety.
3. Cooking step is absolutely necessary to ensure food safety. It doesnt really matter how you get to 70 Deg C, but it has to be there.

Regards,
Bobby

[Bobby]

In the less developed countries ,food safety is still in a nacent stage.The laws of such lands do not emphasise enough on the food safety issues.many incidences of food poisoning go unnoticed,unreported .there is a huge unawareness which is very scary.

Food Safety is defenitely not the priority for the governments in less developed countries because the nation's resources are used up to fight epidemics-
Diseases like Malaria, Hep A& B, Dengue, Chikungunya etc.
I hail from a village in southern part of India and 3 years back I got dengue fever. The fever is deadly. Last year, my wife got Chikungunya and she couldnt walk properly for about 6 months. Note that we just go home for a month every year!
I think we have to get rid of the mosquitoes first and that does not mean that food safety is not a concern.

I think the hotels are implementing HACCP because they are concerned about the tourists.

Bobby krishna

[Jean]

Yes, Bobby you are right, the hotels are implementing HACCP to ensure our guests are provided not only quality food but safe food and moreover we require them to return back to us or have trust and faith in our group. This helps us in our brand building, business operations and reputation, inclusive of other benefits of Food Hygiene.

Regards,

J