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Andreia

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 11:01 PM

Hello all,

I am implementing HACCP in a nursery.

There is a step, that it is keeping cold(for the desserts for example). This step it is a CCP, however this step (keep in cold) is done on the refrigerator , and i have already a register for the refrigerator (another ccp step). Is it necessary to have a register for this step (keep cold)?or the register for the refrigerator can be the same as the step keep cold.

I would like to know your opinion... :smile:

kind regards



mpa

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 11:19 AM

What do you mean with that : " i have already a register for the refrigerator (another ccp step)" .
What is the CCP?? Tje temperature?? I think tou have to think about the limits , maybe the CCP is the same, but it depends on what you are looking for in the 2 CCP you have in the regrigerator.

Mariana



Andreia

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 11:16 PM

Hello Mariana,

thanks for helping me.

The CCP on the refrigerator is the temperature (4ºc), and if the desserts are on the refrigerator the temperature is already been controled on the first register of the temperature of the refrigerator.

Can i have another CCP (keeping cold) with the same register of temperature of the refrigerator?

Kind regards

Andreia



AS NUR

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 01:19 AM

Dear Andrea..

Is you always put the product in Refrigerator?.. if yes.. IMO..you can use Temp. Control only As CCP.. And dont forget to monitoring more frequent and use calibrated thermometer



elias.loisos

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 02:31 PM

Hi Andrea,

What kind of temperature control system do you use? As AS NUR mentioned your calibration procedures will be very important.

Regards,



Abdul Qudoos

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 08:07 AM

Hello all,

I am implementing HACCP in a nursery.

There is a step, that it is keeping cold(for the desserts for example). This step it is a CCP, however this step (keep in cold) is done on the refrigerator , and i have already a register for the refrigerator (another ccp step). Is it necessary to have a register for this step (keep cold)?or the register for the refrigerator can be the same as the step keep cold.

I would like to know your opinion... :smile:

kind regards


Greetings for the day!

Temperature is the CCP for your refrigeration system the limit is 4 degree if its exceeds 4 degree then it is hazardous?. You have to mention the range 1-4 ºc but as for my concern desserts doesn't have any effect upto 12 ºc. what is the shelf-life of the product becoz it directly co-relates with time & temperature.

As for my concern there is no need for another CCP (keeping cold) This is just a monitoring activity, the best thing is to install temperature data loggers which is more economical and accurate. When it exceed 4 ºc it gives an ALARM!!!!!!! to take further corrective action, there are many brands available in market, eg. EBRO, TESTO, etc. most of the people using worldwide.

No need for CCP, it's just a monitoring activity.

Feel free to ask me,
Abdul Qudoos.

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GMO

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 05:45 AM

Temperature is the CCP for your refrigeration system the limit is 4 degree if its exceeds 4 degree then it is hazardous?. You have to mention the range 1-4 ºc but as for my concern desserts doesn't have any effect upto 12 ºc...

No need for CCP, it's just a monitoring activity.


I agree you need tolerence limits but I disagree that 12 ºC would be safe.

For chilled dessrts which normally contain cream, I think 4 ºC is a sensible target but I'd only consider throwing them away at somewhere between 5 and 8 ºC. 8 ºC would be the maximum I'd chose because it's the legal limit for chilled foods in the UK; however, if you can get your fridge to be consistently below that temperature, 5 or 6 would be better.

The reason for this is because of the potential for Listeria monocytogenes growth in the chilled foods. I'd be particularly wary because your consumers are nursery pupils and so are young and more susceptible to Listeria. Listeria can grow at fridge temperatures but the lower the temperature, the slower it grows.

I'd make your CCP the temperature of the products in the fridge though rather than the fridge temperature itself because if you went to the fridge one day and found it was 0.5 ºC out of spec, you might find the product inside is still within spec. So what I'd do is measure the temperature of the fridge and then if it's out of your tolerence level, measure the temperature of one of the desserts and, if it's ok, reduce the temperature in the fridge and recheck after half an hour or move or serve the desserts if the fridge has broken down completely.


Abdul Qudoos

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 12:25 PM

I agree you need tolerence limits but I disagree that 12 ºC would be safe.

For chilled dessrts which normally contain cream, I think 4 ºC is a sensible target but I'd only consider throwing them away at somewhere between 5 and 8 ºC. 8 ºC would be the maximum I'd chose because it's the legal limit for chilled foods in the UK; however, if you can get your fridge to be consistently below that temperature, 5 or 6 would be better.

The reason for this is because of the potential for Listeria monocytogenes growth in the chilled foods. I'd be particularly wary because your consumers are nursery pupils and so are young and more susceptible to Listeria. Listeria can grow at fridge temperatures but the lower the temperature, the slower it grows.

I'd make your CCP the temperature of the products in the fridge though rather than the fridge temperature itself because if you went to the fridge one day and found it was 0.5 ºC out of spec, you might find the product inside is still within spec. So what I'd do is measure the temperature of the fridge and then if it's out of your tolerence level, measure the temperature of one of the desserts and, if it's ok, reduce the temperature in the fridge and recheck after half an hour or move or serve the desserts if the fridge has broken down completely.


I agree with your quote, it depends upon country climate also and customer requirement and what consumer wants, here in UAE / middle east the climate will be hot, so there will be a demand of tailor made product which can resist little high temperature.

Nice to have fruitful discussion, :rolleyes:

Abdul Qudoos

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GMO

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 05:35 AM

I think Listeria doesn't really respect borders though?



Tony-C

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 05:58 AM

I think Listeria doesn't really respect borders though?



Absolutely Nursery = Take no chances. Also Bacillus cereus grows at temperatures over 8 C escpecially in non pH protected products and spores are likely to be present in cream.


Charles.C

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 12:53 PM

Dear All,

Regarding the refrigerator temperature, the US seem to be much tougher than the UK (and rightly so IMO).

http://www.fsis.usda...p;_Food_Safety/

Regarding significance of listeriosis, here is some support for GMO’s comment.

The impact on the predicted total number of cases of listeriosis per year from all 23 food categories and total United States population by eliminating the refrigerators operating above 5 and 7 °C –



And some analogous predicted mortality rates for a specific product –



Rgds /Charles.C


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


philip

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 12:47 PM

As always, thought provoking discussions. However, there is a common trap that is so easy to fall into when dealing with these things. You must rigorously apply decision tree questions or you identify a CCP based on gut feel rather than a scientific approach.
If you follow the Campden guide, there is an early decision to be made about the coice between a CCP and a prerequisite. While happy to be shot down in flames (metaphorically of course), here is my take on it.

The hazard is that of pathogenic bacteria
The process step is storage at a chilled temoerature.

Q1 Is the hazard at the process step significant for food safety?
Answer - obvously yes, but is it a PR or CCP?

Q2. Is the hazard specific to the process step?
Answer - no, the innoculation or non-destruction of the bacteria occurred earlier in the food chain, so storage at low temperature would not eliminate or reduce the hazard if earlier controls had failed (compare to an end of line metal detector which would eliminate earlier failures. This makes it a Prerequisite in my book.

but if you disagree with answer 2....

Q3. Is it possible to establish a critical limit?
Answer - no. You need a critical limit for the hazard. Microbilogically you tend to have controlling limits not critical ones.

So I make the fridge temperature a part of the prerequisite controls not a CCP.

Just in case you disagree, look at it a different way. If fridge temperature was a CCP and there have been discussions about what the temperature should be ( 4 degrees to 12 degrees), lets go for a median of 6 degrees, say. If some one left the door open for 30 mins and the temp of newly delivered yoghurt with a shelf life of 14 days wemt to 7 degrees, would you dump them or sell them immediately? I suggest they would be perfectly safe but if you analysed as a CCP you are pre-determining the safety limit absolutely. Would you have such a draconian course of action so different to that which you would have in your fridge at home?

Dont forget that a prerequisite programme still requires controls and measurements. It isn't to be treated light-heartedly.

Philip



Charles.C

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 02:21 PM

Dear Philip,

Interesting post. One immediate comment is that it is rather unusual to find a process step used as a prerequisite due to the usual visualisation as a more generally applied program (eg GMP controls) but I would not say impossible since control of received ingredients can be overlapped into PRPs and also "infrastructure related". Regret that I haven't seen the Campden document so difficult to comment on their procedure however any argument presumably also depends on what bacterium you are referring to. If it was a RTE, then a non-zero tolerance for salmonella (legislatory critical limit ??) would usually apply but not so (although perhaps with geographical variations) in the case of L.mono.... (or S.aureus if >10-12degC) I guess this is one support for referencing FSOs when choosing critical limits in the HACCP plan structure. Also there is another aspect of a CCP definition which refers to the ability of a control measure to prevent an acceptable situation changing into an unacceptable one. Ultimately, a deviation will require an appropriate corrective action and I think scenarios such as you mention regarding failure of a CL hv in fact been examined in the literature en route to proposals in the event of failures of home refrigerators (one rule- of- thumb is given in my FDA link previously).

Again, perhaps it''s easier to avoid the D-tree (and even pre-requisite calculations) altogether and use a risk assessment, eg how often do refrigerators fail to achieve a temperature / time adequate to prevent a "representative (?)" level of L.mono (with its own likelihood of occurring) increasing to above an FSO ? And the severity ?? Well, if you're in Canada, it's officially / automatically "high" from memory, and probably in most other locations. That probably leaves you with a choice of M or H to achieve a CCP for a 3x3 matrix. Seems rather simpler than a D-tree ?? :biggrin:

However I do believe the analysis / validation would be more complicated for salmonella. Certified raw materials = pre-requisite ?

Certainly looks like the Americans should throw away a lot more food from the refrigerator than the Brits. In practice, not so sure ?

Rgds / Charles.C


added - I did some looking around and storage-related functions do appear in some lists of prerequisites (esp.retail) thereby (presumably) neatly avoiding both decision tree and risk assessment procedures as long as the validation reference is acceptable. This is one of the most expanded (FDA, US retail HACCP) presentations that I could see -

PROCEDURAL STEP 1
Develop Prerequisite Programs
If you want to build a sturdy home, you should start with a strong foundation. The same is true of a food safety management system. In order for your food safety management system to be effective, you should first develop and implement a strong foundation of procedures that address the basic operational and sanitation conditions within your operation. These procedures are collectively termed "prerequisite programs."
When prerequisite programs are in place, you can focus more attention on the hazards associated with the food and its preparation. Before beginning to write your food safety management system, it is recommended that you develop and implement prerequisite programs. Prerequisite programs may include such things as -
• Vendor certification programs
• Training programs
• Allergen management
• Buyer specifications
• Recipe/process instructions
• First-In-First-Out (FIFO) procedures
• Other Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs)
Basic prerequisite programs should be in place to -
• Protect products from contamination by biological, chemical, and physical food safety hazards
• Control bacterial growth that can result from temperature abuse
• Maintain equipment
Prerequisite Programs to Control Contamination of Food
These procedures insure that -
• Soiled and unsanitized surfaces of equipment and utensils do not contact raw or cooked (ready-to-eat) food
• Workers with certain symptoms, such as vomiting or diarrhea, are restricted or excluded
• Raw animal foods do not contaminate cooked (ready-to-eat) food
• Effective handwashing is practiced
• Eating, smoking, and drinking in food preparation areas are prohibited
• Water in contact with food and food-contact surfaces and used in the manufacture of ice is potable
• Toxic compounds are properly labeled, stored, and safely used
• Contaminants such as condensate, lubricants, pesticides, cleaning compounds, sanitizing agents, and additional toxic materials do not contact food, food-packaging materials, and food-contact surfaces
• Food, food-packaging materials, and food-contact surfaces are not contaminated by physical hazards such as broken glass from light fixtures, jewelry, etc.
• An effective pest control system is in place
• Hair restraints are used
• Clean clothing is worn
• The wearing of jewelry (other than a wedding ring) is prohibited
Prerequisite Programs to Control Bacterial Growth
These procedures ensure that all potentially hazardous food is received and stored at a refrigerated temperature of 41°F or below. Note that the Food Code makes some allowances for specific foods that may be received at higher temperatures.
Prerequisite Programs to Maintain Equipment
These procedures ensure that -
• Food-contact surfaces, including utensils, are cleaned, sanitized, and maintained in good condition
• Temperature measuring devices (e.g., thermometer or temperature recording device) are calibrated regularly
• Cooking and hot holding equipment (grills, ovens, steam tables, conveyer cookers, etc.) are routinely checked, calibrated, and operated to ensure correct product temperature
• Cold holding and cooling equipment (refrigerators, rapid chill units, freezers, salad bars, etc.) are routinely checked, calibrated, and operated to ensure correct product temperature
• Warewashing equipment is operated according to manufacturer's specifications
• Toilet facilities are accessible to employees and maintained
The items addressed by this procedural step are the foundation by which your entire food safety management system is based. The success of any food safety management system is dependent on how well you control these basic sanitation issues in your establishment

This is getting slightly Off-topic but in the process i noticed 2 other interesting items which people might find interesting -

UK (legal-oriented?) haccp ccp template example for cooked meat pies -

Attached File  HACCP_Plan_template_cooked_meat_pies.pdf   60.22KB   371 downloads

detailed hygiene (EU 2006) decision tree based analyses for chilled production. May well be related to the well-known CFA book, (GMO should know better than me :biggrin: ) -
(final storage step is not generally listed under GMP except 1 example, remainder are noted as must be examined within overall HACCP plan )

Attached File  ECFF_decision_tree_recc._for_prod.chilled_foods.pdf   397.86KB   87 downloads


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C




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