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#26 Chubbs

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 12:56 AM

I had the same issue, I strongly put that the rule had no exemptions but I also rang the local Bishop, described the problem  and the Bishop was very helpful and spoke to the employee on the phone.

One exemption just leads to another



#27 sinnae404

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 01:05 AM

Yes that's very true.

An exemption can also be a walking advertisement to non-compliance.  Even if it is for good reason, it would appear to open the door to others thinking that the rules don't apply to all people all of the time and that all the rules have some wiggle room.  A slippery slope.

 

I will consider my options, but thanks for the responses.  



#28 Mmmm_food

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 02:17 AM

Interesting discussion!

 

If the jewellery is concealed by clothing, I don't see that it is really a problem. It won't fall off into product and it is not exposed to allow for bacterial contamination. All staff member could have covered jewellery such as belly button piercings that you would never know about.

 

That said, I think there need to be rules in place and the exceptions dealt with on a case by case basis. At my previous workplace, a casual worker started who wore a turban but we were able to accommodate him by ordering large hairnets to cover the turban as well as his hair. However when a woman who wore a head scarf for religious reasons started with us, that posed a problem. Our rules were that uniforms must be laundered and no personal clothing should be visible. There was no guarantee that the scarf was clean and more importantly, because it was loose, it presented an occupational safety risk of being caught in machinery. We discussed the matter with HR and concluded that there was no way to ensure safety to the staff member and the product and advised the labour company that head scarves could not be permitted for these reasons.



#29 Avila

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 04:15 AM

An exemption can also be a walking advertisement to non-compliance.  Even if it is for good reason, it would appear to open the door to others thinking that the rules don't apply to all people all of the time and that all the rules have some wiggle room.

Agreed... I believe GMPs are made to be applicable for all countries around the world with many religions and cultures. That's what GMPs are for



#30 Tony-C

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 06:39 AM

I think this thread has been slightly hijacked but on that subject:

 

I had an operator come up to me complaining about the new QA manager's new rule about no ball caps when I was a tech at a previous role.  Knowing the operators sure does help a lot with these types of situations.

 

This particular operator was a country boy.  He liked mudding, hunting, and all of that country living kind of stuff...................

 

:off_topic:

 

I'm pretty sure I've heard that story before, maybe I spend too much time on the forums? :k9:

 

 

Back on topic, if you have a policy enforce it, allow exceptions and the cracks will appear.

 

Regards,

 

Tony



#31 Rosemary4

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 08:31 AM

Hi, maybe I'm missing the point here, but as sinnae404 stated the cleaner doesn't work near food contact surfaces so is less of a risk. We also only allow plain wedding ring and sleeper earings, no facial piercings, fake nails or eyelashes. However, how many of us know what jewellery is worn under the employees uniform? Who would know if someone had a nipple ring for example? I agree that any exposed non-conforming jewellery is not acceptable.

 

As far as I would respond to the issue, as long as the person is fully covered and the offending item is not in any danger of contaminating the product I can't see how anyone can object!



#32 Mr. Incognito

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 11:23 AM

:off_topic:

 

I'm pretty sure I've heard that story before, maybe I spend too much time on the forums? :k9:

 

 

Back on topic, if you have a policy enforce it, allow exceptions and the cracks will appear.

 

Regards,

 

Tony

 

Or the person who posted it spends too much time on the forums :helpplease:  or needs more really good stories of the employee comes to understand Quality people are not just jerks :shades:  (Nice use of K-9 lol)

 

Hi, maybe I'm missing the point here, but as sinnae404 stated the cleaner doesn't work near food contact surfaces so is less of a risk. We also only allow plain wedding ring and sleeper earings, no facial piercings, fake nails or eyelashes. However, how many of us know what jewellery is worn under the employees uniform? Who would know if someone had a nipple ring for example? I agree that any exposed non-conforming jewellery is not acceptable.

 

Actually on the point of jewelry under clothing - of which I won't list :giggle:  - we actually had it in our policy that is was visible jewelry and we had a requirement for shirts to be tucked in... so jewelry, such as you mentioned directly, wouldn't have a reasonable risk to come in contact with the product.  Also many times our conversations touch on the topic and then stray a little... :off_topic:  but I've found that it's not always bad because you always learn something...

 

Thanks for some thought provoking responses.  That's my first post and I wasn't expecting to log in this morning and find so much discussion!

I can see the viewpoint of treating these type of things as black and white, but this comment did strike a chord:

 

"Also, as a human being, there is no way in hell I'm telling an employee they aren't allowed to mourn their father and must go home with out pay for a week when there is no genuine food safety risk to the product.  It seems like a weird display of power and unnecessarily cruel."

 

I think the suggestions of making exceptions a last resort, and then having a documented process to follow if they are granted, are good advice.

The reality is that the allowance of a 'plain wedding band' is already an exception, made not because of risk level but because of the strong objection some would have at removing them.  In that context, my opinion is that it becomes necessary to exercise some discretion in these cases.  

 

Thanks again to all, I've found all of the responses enlightening.

 

I worked in a plant before that after years of being open they decided to implement a no ring policy, previously it was plain wedding band, and while some people complained they said they made their decision because you can't go home with 4 fingers and say you lost the other one because of love.  Honestly I don't care... I worked in a DVD factory and you could wear watches, rings, necklaces and I don't know anyone in the couple years I was there that lost a finger over a ring... but it is what it is.

 

Also many conversations end up becoming pretty good conversations... that's why my work computer is always logged into IFSQN when I'm at work.


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#33 it_rains_inside

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 05:59 PM

I am quality manager and I have two dermal implants in my wrist (I had them put in before I got into this career) . Because I literally cannot take them out I keep them covered at all times when in the facility, but i know that a lot of the production employees feel this is a double standard. Based on risk though, these two studs are not leaving my body without part of me going with it so i would for sure know if i lost it and could contain the situation, where as if a bracelet or earring would fall off/ out, would the employee notice? (probably not) - not the best justification (nor the best example to set for my peeps) but it works. Also, for as much time as i spend on the production floor i am not actively working in open product zones, which makes a big difference as well.


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#34 Simon

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 07:06 PM

I am quality manager and I have two dermal implants in my wrist (I had them put in before I got into this career) . Because I literally cannot take them out I keep them covered at all times when in the facility, but i know that a lot of the production employees feel this is a double standard. Based on risk though, these two studs are not leaving my body without part of me going with it so i would for sure know if i lost it and could contain the situation, where as if a bracelet or earring would fall off/ out, would the employee notice? (probably not) - not the best justification (nor the best example to set for my peeps) but it works. Also, for as much time as i spend on the production floor i am not actively working in open product zones, which makes a big difference as well.

 

Based on a logical risk assessment it is a perfect example of a justifiable exemption.

Based on human emotion it can never be justified. :smile:


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#35 Tony-C

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 08:27 PM

I am quality manager and I have two dermal implants in my wrist (I had them put in before I got into this career) . Because I literally cannot take them out I keep them covered at all times when in the facility,

 

I've heard of one or two in other areas. Would really like to know why you would do that? Please tell!

 

I believe they are not likely to fall out but I'd want them covered with a plaster (colored/detectable/logged) - on the wrist!

 

Based on human emotion it can never be justified. :smile:

 

So are you volunteering to cut them out? :yikes:

 

The solution to this problem is to only recruit people with no jewelry or only single banded wedding rings (with no stones) ?

 

The other thing is what you don't know is that production 'nick' the 'amenities cleaner' and use the 'amenities cleaner' to check product on the line (when in fact actually the 'amenities cleaner' is doing this because they're bored and are loaded with billions in the bank) ........and the 'amenities cleaner' does have a loose 50 carat diamond in their jewelry that is guaranteed to fall into your ice cubes and choke some poor kid. But maybe that isn't a problem for some parents as they get to keep the diamond?

 

Regards,

 

Tony



#36 Mr. Incognito

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 11:24 AM

How would you deal with someone who claims they can not remove an item of jewellery for strong sentimental/religious reasons?  

This is an amenities cleaner, who does not work near food contact surfaces but does need to access the factory floor, and the jewellery is mostly concealed beneath clothing.  If I was to risk assess this case, it would be very low risk to product (baking environment).  Nevertheless, it contravenes our policy and the concern is always setting the wrong precedent.

 

Thanks!

 

 

So I think the round about answer after all of this is:

 

Is it something that is required by their religion or not?  If it is then risk assess it.  If it's just that they want to wear it then I'd stick to the policy.  Policies exist for a reason.  That's my take away from the conversation.


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#37 it_rains_inside

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 03:05 PM

I've heard of one or two in other areas. Would really like to know why you would do that? Please tell!

 

I believe they are not likely to fall out but I'd want them covered with a plaster (colored/detectable/logged) - on the wrist!

Why does anyone get piercings (regardless of location/style)? I guess because i could. My past life was as an artist in a tattoo shop, the owner had just got licensed to do dermals and I was eager to get them.  And by eager I mean young, and impulsive. 

After quite a few years I finally got used to them being in place and got accustomed to doing things without snagging them. It still happens every now and then, and I can assure you - these babies are not leaving my body without my knowledge. I was picking up a pallet and moving it around a piece of equipment a few months back and the pallet slid down the top of wrist where my implants are - ooooohh baby. I couldnt even look at it because i was sure one if not both had been ripped out. But to my surprise they were both still in place, hurt like a b**** for a few days, but healed up all the same. After that instance i was definitely less worried about them becoming "foreign material" in our product, but i keep them covered anyways. Its actually more likely Id lose the bandaid before the stud. 


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#38 fgjuadi

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 04:07 PM

I've heard of one or two in other areas. Would really like to know why you would do that? Please tell!

 

I believe they are not likely to fall out but I'd want them covered with a plaster (colored/detectable/logged) - on the wrist!

 

 

So are you volunteering to cut them out? :yikes:

 

:off_topic: Why wouldn't you get them?  They're pretty.  I like to decorate my body all over the place, piercings and tattos can do that.   I love the septum piercings esp on men and the little rhinestone "moles" for women, cuz it makes them sparkle. It's the same reason I dye my hair.  To look pretty.

 

Moar sparkle.  The only real answer is - we get them to attract a suitable mate :D.  I wouldn't want to be bumping uglies with a gross normal. 


Edited by magenta_majors, 06 June 2014 - 04:18 PM.

.--. .- -. - ... / --- .--. - .. --- -. .- .-..

#39 Snookie

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 04:07 PM

So I think the round about answer after all of this is:

 

Is it something that is required by their religion or not?  If it is then risk assess it.  If it's just that they want to wear it then I'd stick to the policy.  Policies exist for a reason.  That's my take away from the conversation.

 

 

Good summation.  4 pages in one succinct line. 


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#40 it_rains_inside

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 05:41 PM

:off_topic: Why wouldn't you get them?  They're pretty.  I like to decorate my body all over the place, piercings and tattos can do that.   I love the septum piercings esp on men and the little rhinestone "moles" for women, cuz it makes them sparkle. It's the same reason I dye my hair.  To look pretty.

 

Moar sparkle.  The only real answer is - we get them to attract a suitable mate :D.  I wouldn't want to be bumping uglies with a gross normal. 

My sentiments exactly Magenta! 


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#41 Tony-C

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 05:56 PM

My sentiments exactly Magenta! 

 

Sorry! my wife would understand I don't :shutup:






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