35 replies to this topic

[aps]

Hi

Just wanted to get some views on my question.

Technical Manager and QA Manager both being responsible to the director? I am not sure this will work as I have always been places where quality falls under the technical manager.

Look forward to your comments

Aps

[JohnWheat]

As many questions on here - 'it all depends'   Titles can be misleading with different companies.

I am/have been a QA Manager for a few years however my title has changed within different companies.

Quality Manager, QA Manager, Assistant Tech Manager, Quality systems Manager, Lead Quality........etc.

I attended am interview a few years ago for a Quality Manager where the job spec was really what you would expect of a Technical Manager (they wanted an awful lot for the position for a Quality Manager salary but obviously didn't want to pay for it!)

 

In MOST standard circumstances the Technical Manager would report to director and QA Manager would report to the Technical Manager.

[QAGB]

As many questions on here - 'it all depends'   Titles can be misleading with different companies.

I am/have been a QA Manager for a few years however my title has changed within different companies.

Quality Manager, QA Manager, Assistant Tech Manager, Quality systems Manager, Lead Quality........etc.

I attended am interview a few years ago for a Quality Manager where the job spec was really what you would expect of a Technical Manager (they wanted an awful lot for the position for a Quality Manager salary but obviously didn't want to pay for it!)

 

In MOST standard circumstances the Technical Manager would report to director and QA Manager would report to the Technical Manager.

 

 

I agree with JohnWheat. It really does depend on the company. Larger companies have more of a need to have such a large hierarchy; whereas in smaller companies, there may not even be a Technical Manager (or that role may be encompassed in the QA Manager role). I've run into similar issues with this over the years, and from one company to the next you can almost bet on the job functions of the same title being different.

 

QAGB

[QAGB]

Hi

Just wanted to get some views on my question.

Technical Manager and QA Manager both being responsible to the director? I am not sure this will work as I have always been places where quality falls under the technical manager.

Look forward to your comments

Aps

 

Being what I said above, it really depends on the job functions of each role. If the Technical Manager and QA Manager functions can be such that they work on the same level, the two roles can coexist. For example, the technical manager might work with nutritional information, specification information, staying in tune with regulatory items, HACCP, project management etc. and the QA Manager might work more in-line with QA production on the floor, making sure product is in spec, and supervising technicians and so forth. I can see those two positions working together. If the technical manager has more of an executive role of decision making, attending audits, and general supervising, that could be an issue.

 

Bottom line, are the job functions aligned so that there really isn't one position higher than the other, or is it just a title issue?

 

 

QAGB

[aps]

Hi 

 

Its more of a title issue. The person who is taking the job is coming within the business. They currently are in a manager role but their background is quality. I had said to to her that the role would be reporting to me in which they were unhappy about as they felt this was a downgrade as currently they report to the Director in their current role so now the director has said they will report to them. The way they are speaking they want to get involved in the audit implementing standards etc, where I feel this is my role.....

 

 

Thoughts....

[Dr.Khan]

Hi aps

 

In larger companies the Technical Manager role has a larger scope which may includes Quality Assurance, Product development, process improvement, business planning etc. The QA manager role most confine  to management of quality and food safety systems.

 

Having said that it is also well known that in small companies QA Manager may also acts as a sole technical source and have all the responsibilities as of Technical Manager. In short title can be misleading. So it a title issue.

 

Kind regards'

Humaid Khan

MD- Halal International Services

[QAGB]

Hi 

 

Its more of a title issue. The person who is taking the job is coming within the business. They currently are in a manager role but their background is quality. I had said to to her that the role would be reporting to me in which they were unhappy about as they felt this was a downgrade as currently they report to the Director in their current role so now the director has said they will report to them. The way they are speaking they want to get involved in the audit implementing standards etc, where I feel this is my role.....

 

 

Thoughts....

 

 

Hi aps,

 

Is there any way that one of you could work on implementation, and the other work on compliance? That way both of you are working towards getting or maintaining certifications. The Technical Manager position could be best suited for compliance; making sure that you are doing what the standard says you should do (possibly acting as an internal auditor) and checking for standard updates, and you can work in implementation based on the results. It is probably better that it is a title issue rather than job function issue, because you can spread roles around at this point. Had you both been doing exactly the same functions in the past, this would be more difficult to separate.

 

QAGB

[aps]

Thanks all for your comments, I still feel that this is still going to have its issues with the reporting structure both to the director.

Cheers

Aps

[Simon]

Hi Aps, you may have problems of stepping on toes, so you need clear roles and responsibilities, but also some cover is always useful for times of absence.  Does either role get involved with special projects or continuous improvement activities, both of these are important and enjoyable aspects that are often lacking in business.

 

Just a thought...

 

Regards,

Simon

[Charles.C]

Thanks all for your comments, I still feel that this is still going to have its issues with the reporting structure both to the director.

Cheers

Aps

 

Hi aps,

 

It's when you have 2 people with the same title, things can get really interesting.

[JohnWheat]

Hi aps,

 

It's when you have 2 people with the same title, things can get really interesting.

Haha - is that from personal experience Charles?? :) 

[aps]

Hi 

 

How would you suggest I split the roles as I only have been used to where the QA Manager reports into the Technical Manager. It also concerns me that if the QA Manager reports direct to the director that there will be things which the Tech manager needs to know may not get to know. 

 

Cheers

[QAGB]

Hi 

 

How would you suggest I split the roles as I only have been used to where the QA Manager reports into the Technical Manager. It also concerns me that if the QA Manager reports direct to the director that there will be things which the Tech manager needs to know may not get to know. 

 

Cheers

 

Hi aps,

 

I'll just summarize the posts by Dr. Humaid Khan, Simon, and myself.

 

QA Manager

• Implementing items from current and new regulatory laws as they pertain to Quality
• Conducting Quality reviews and Management reviews - Creating Continuous Improvement Benchmarks
• Creating corrective actions for non-compliances, and maintaining trend data for repeat occurrences
• HACCP plan implementation Quality and production level
• Ensuring all products being produced meet the specifications
• Managing QA team and technicians
• Maintaining laboratory
• Training QA team and technicians on laboratory equipment
• Implementing corrective actions from internal audits; managing GMP inspections
• Managing supplier approval process
• Conducting supplier audits as needed
• Attending 2nd and 3rd party audits with technical manager
• Weekly meetings with Director and Technical Manager to discuss items

 

 

Technical Manager

• Maintaining technical data sheets (specifications, allergen statements) keeping those items up to date and applying needed changes.
• Distributing technical data sheets to customers as needed - answering questions about technical information.
• Ensuring company is compliant with current regulatory laws and keeping QA Manager and rest of team briefed on new regulatory laws
• Special Projects - Project Management [perhaps R&D & Product Development]
• Creating HACCP plans and ensuring compliance to HACCP
• Conducting internal audits against food safety standards
• Attending 2nd and 3rd party audits with QA Manager
• Business planning, making sure resources are available to carry out projects, etc.
• Weekly meetings with Director and Technical Manager to discuss items

 

There's a lot more to the roles, but that's sort of a general role separation that I could see. I don't know the specifics of what you would need (since I'm not sure what the role of director would do).

 

QAGB

[Charles.C]

Hi QAGB,

 

An impressive "summarization".

 

here is another, typically iso, exposition -

 

2.4 Technical management [4.1.5]
There is no requirement in ISO 17025 to identify a specific technical manager, but the
technical  management  structure  has  to  be  specified.  This  must  make  clear  who  is
responsible  for  technical  management  and  the  scope  of  their  responsibilities.  For
example, if different technical areas have different managers, this needs to be specified
and  their  range  of  responsibility  clearly  defined.  It  is  generally  expected  that  in  any
specific laboratory there will be a distinct laboratory manager, but in larger organisations
with  several  technically  distinct  laboratories  there  may  be  several  laboratory  managers
with specific technical briefs and with no overall defined technical manager.  
 
The technical management must be clearly distinct from the role of the quality manager
and  the  quality  management  structure,  but  the  technical  management  still  has  an
obligation  to  ensure  that  technical  activities  are  conducted  in  accordance  with  the
requirements  of  the  quality  system.  As  is  discussed  in  section  2.5,  although  the  quality
manager has overall responsibility for quality, this is discharged through monitoring and
advising  and  not  by  managing  quality  control  and  assurance  of  technical  activities
directly.

 

 Complying_with_ISO_17025_A_practical_guidebook.pdf   1.25MB   64 downloads

(admittedly a perhaps slightly biased source)

 

And i really liked the reporting aspect of this one -

 technical manager 2015.doc   57.5KB   79 downloads

 

Extrapolating from Post 5, i wonder if the issue is also a case of UK Cultural Pride.

 

The US seems to be equally afflicted but perhaps in a more functional way (Job Creation ?) eg  -

 

http://everydaylife....nager-7060.html

 

Personally I had never heard of the TM Title  until a UK customer surfaced. Who naturally assumed it was a Global Standard.

 

I'm surprised no-one has compared Titles vs Money yet. The true Bottom Line ?

[QAGB]

Hi QAGB,

 

An impressive "summarization".

 

here is another, typically iso, exposition -

Complying_with_ISO_17025_A_practical_guidebook.pdf

(admittedly a perhaps slightly biased source)

 

And i really liked the reporting aspect of this one -

technical manager 2015.doc

 

Extrapolating from Post 5, i wonder if the issue is also a case of UK Cultural Pride.

 

The US seems to be equally afflicted but perhaps in a more functional way (Job Creation ?) eg  -

 

http://everydaylife....nager-7060.html

 

Personally I had never heard of the TM Title  until a UK customer surfaced. Who naturally assumed it was a Global Standard.

 

I'm surprised no-one has compared Titles vs Money yet. The true Bottom Line ?

 

 

Hi Charles,

 

Thanks for the documents. Based on the information you gave, the laboratory functions belong under the technical manager. I work for a small company, so I actually have both the roles of QA and Technical Manager, even though I don't carry the title of Technical Manager (so it is a little confusing to separate). Being that we (my company) have many suppliers and customers though, I have heard a number of titles being thrown out there for the same job functions. Conversely, I know there are many other people out there with the same title I have, that don't have nearly as much responsibility as I do. It's got quite a bit to do with the size of the company, I believe.

 

I have edited the summary based on those documents and quotes you found. The edits are in italics. I omitted documentation control (a big part of QA) for some reason, so it's in there now. The laboratory functions are now listed under Technical Manager. Hopefully the OP can split the roles in a similar manner.

 

QA Manager

• Implementing items from current and new regulatory laws as they pertain to Quality
• Conducting Quality reviews and Management reviews - Creating Continuous Improvement Benchmarks
• Creating corrective actions for non-compliances, and maintaining trend data for repeat occurrences
• Documentation control and management of record keeping
• Review of completed production documentation
• HACCP plan implementation Quality and production level
• Ensuring all products being produced meet the specifications
• Managing QA team
• Implementing corrective actions from internal audits; managing GMP inspections
• Managing supplier approval process
• Conducting supplier audits as needed
• Attending 2nd and 3rd party audits with technical manager
• Weekly meetings with Director and Technical Manager to discuss items

 

 

Technical Manager

• Maintaining technical data sheets (specifications, allergen statements) keeping those items up to date and applying needed changes.
• Distributing technical data sheets to customers as needed - answering questions about technical information.
• Ensuring company is compliant with current regulatory laws and keeping QA Manager and rest of team briefed on new regulatory laws
• Special Projects - Project Management [perhaps R&D & Product Development]
• Creating HACCP plans and ensuring compliance to HACCP
• Conducting internal audits against food safety standards
• Attending 2nd and 3rd party audits with QA Manager
• Managing laboratory
• Training technicians on laboratory equipment
• Business planning, making sure resources are available to carry out projects, etc.
• Weekly meetings with Director and Technical Manager to discuss items

 

 

QAGB

[Charles.C]

Hi QAGB,

 

(slightly OT)

 

i should have added that i have so far never encountered the "Director" status as you refer (and in OP). Perhaps this is a strictly UK-centric term ?

 

added - just found it although looks more like a US clone  -

 

http://www.indeed.co...uring-jobs.html

 

TBH I  hadn't realized Companies had succeeded in devising such elaborate QA/QC daisy chains.

 

As you mentioned it is presumably correlated to size. And perhaps occasionally megalomania.

 

PS - I have also, despite iso/apps thread title, never met a "Quality Manager". Not impressive-sounding enough perhaps. (I had a similar reaction to Technical Manager which sounds to me more like an Engineering Rank [no offence intended]). I guess it's a question of perception in the absence of job descriptions.

[QAGB]

Hi QAGB,

 

(slightly OT)

 

i should have added that i have so far never encountered the "Director" status as you refer (and in OP). Perhaps this is a strictly UK-centric term ?

 

added - just found it although looks more like a US clone  -

 

http://www.indeed.co...uring-jobs.html

 

TBH I  hadn't realized Companies had succeeded in devising such elaborate QA/QC daisy chains.

 

As you mentioned it is presumably correlated to size. And perhaps occasionally megalomania.

 

PS - I have also, despite iso/apps thread title, never met a "Quality Manager". Not impressive-sounding enough perhaps. (I had a similar reaction to Technical Manager which sounds to me more like an Engineering Rank [no offence intended]). I guess it's a question of perception in the absence of job descriptions.

 

 

Hi Charles,

 

What I gathered from some of those Director job descriptions is exactly what I do, minus the huge amount of experience in some cases 15 years needed to do the job (whatever the reason may be). I don't really understand the role of Director, unless they have some sort of overall responsibility that doesn't overlap with the QA Manager or Technical Manager (I just don't see how that could be the case).

 

I'm a QA Manager, but apparently my role must be QA Director, Manager, and Technical Manager all wrapped into one. That's how I know based on conversations with other QA Managers that even though we have the same title, I have much more responsibility than most.

 

Be that as it may, based on the Director job descriptions, it's entirely possible that the Director position has a lot of commonalities with the QA Manager position and perhaps the OP is concerned that the Technical Manager position will further take away some of their other QA Manager functions (besides audit implementation).

 

 

QAGB

[aps]

Ok.... bombs been dropped. Had our meeting today to see where this role is to be split. Traceability to stay with me ( technical manager) also label check and packaging to be with technical and is nothing to do with the qa manager. So if it is labelled or packed incorrectly this is a technical issue. Apparently the quality manager does not need to know the specs as this will be all down to technical. What plant is the md on. I don't think he fully understands. Tried to voice my opinion but he was not interested.

What's your thoughts?

[aps]

Hi

When I say director I mean managing director ( owner) just to make it clear nothing to do with tech director. Technical manager and new position qa manager reporting to the owner.

Thanks

[Charles.C]

Hi aps,

 

If it looks like Politics, smells like ........

 

The 64,000$ question for me is why was this new arrival brought on board ? Internal frictions ?

 

Worst case (job) scenario is self-evident.

[aps]

The QA Manage is looking after quality only on the plant, closing off all non conformance, keeping standards and improving on etc. Where the Technical Manager (me) being customer facing help drive sales, which is a new one for me as I've always been standards etc although I have been customer facing but driving sales is a newby.

 

The QA Manager (New) is the HR Manager but her background was QA. She accepted this position on the terms that she reported to the MD not the Technical Manager as she seen this as a step down.

 

Thanks

[Charles.C]

Hi aps,

 

I deduce the Marketing section is non-existent.

 

I hope  you enjoy being  Technical/Sales Manager. It's certainly original IMEX. 1.5 times the salary ?

 

I anticipate some ulterior motives will soon become apparent.

[QAGB]

The QA Manage is looking after quality only on the plant, closing off all non conformance, keeping standards and improving on etc. Where the Technical Manager (me) being customer facing help drive sales, which is a new one for me as I've always been standards etc although I have been customer facing but driving sales is a newby.

 

The QA Manager (New) is the HR Manager but her background was QA. She accepted this position on the terms that she reported to the MD not the Technical Manager as she seen this as a step down.

 

Thanks

 

 

Hi aps.

 

Thank you for your update. I don't quite think the job functions were separated out the way they should have been. To be honest with you, label checks, packaging checks, and traceability belong with QA. Creating specifications, updating technical data and so forth would belong to the Technical Manager. For example, if your company decides to make a new product, you would be responsible for getting the nutritional panel for the label ready, and making data sheets for nutrition on the product. On the QA side, it's the job of the QA team to ensure the actual product is being labeled according to your label and packaging information. Along those lines, I would even say that you would be the one responsible for setting product volumes or weights for each product, and QA would be responsible for verifying the products are in the targets you specified.

 

I don't understand why the split would have been done that way, because it's very important that the QA Manager and team both know the specs so that the team can conduct line audits for products. As a Technical Manager, you can set the specs, but the QA team should definitely know what the specs are.

 

It sounds to me, like Charles said, that they were looking for you to fill a role they previously didn't have. Perhaps you can also get them to open up any R&D or Project Management considerations (if that would be something you want to do), to give you vital functions in other areas as well.

 

QAGB

[aps]

Thanks for your comments people, its good to read. However this is still messed up in my head how this is going to work. I have two QA staff underneath me which are very good and to add on to my position I am in they do not want to work for the new QA Manager as they feel the structure is all wrong and cause i wont be responsible of this.

 

What is getting me at the moment is how to explain to the MD the difference in the roles and why the function should still stay w ith me having all responsibly. Also why QA should be checking labels not Technical. His excuse for this is that he thinks I was passing on ll the split and wondering what I would be left with.  Ha what made me laugh aswell is that he said all traceability is Technical responsibility not QA.

 

This is messed up really

 

Oh well thanks again

[Watanka]

Aps,

 

We operate under SQF code which requires us to have a SQF Practitioner who may, or may not, be the QA Manager.  As the QA Manager/SQF Practitioner I report directly to the President of the company.  We are required by legislation to have a government compliance officer at each premises who is the technical manager for all things related to keeping government agencies happy and well fed with needed data and product in compliance with government specification.  We also have a lab and a QC Manager at each premises who are our technical managers for product specifications and so on.  Both of these technical managers report to a vice president of operations.  From our standpoint the QA Manager must remain independent of operations to be objective and not tied up in production throughput vs quality assurance conflicts.  I audit the technical managers, and everyone else for that matter, to be sure the work meets SQF code requirements and both legislative and customer requirements. 

 

Just another way of looking at the same puzzle.  Who's on first and what's on second.

 

Good luck!