35 replies to this topic

[aps]

Hi all

Well I have spoken with the MD regarding this set up he wants with separating technical and quality and I can see abit where he wants to go with this, but I still have an issue. He still insists that label checks and now metal detection and calibration of scales is now also a technical funtion. I told him again I disagree but he would not buy this. How to I get over the point that this is a qa job?

Thanks

[Simon]

Aps sounds like you've reached the roll with it or jump ship decision.

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[QAGB]

Hi all

Well I have spoken with the MD regarding this set up he wants with separating technical and quality and I can see abit where he wants to go with this, but I still have an issue. He still insists that label checks and now metal detection and calibration of scales is now also a technical funtion. I told him again I disagree but he would not buy this. How to I get over the point that this is a qa job?

Thanks

 

 

Aps sounds like you've reached the roll with it or jump ship decision.

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I agree with Simon. One can definitely make the argument that calibration falls under the Technical Manager; especially if you are responsible for laboratory equipment. You're better off maintaining more roles at this point, in all honesty. It doesn't work to your favor if the new QA Manager ends up with more responsibilities than you. Give it 6 months at least, and then if things aren't working out, perhaps you can re-evaluate the situation. For now, it sounds like you've done all you can do, and continuing to push the issue may cause unintended friction.

 

QAGB

[aps]

OK people this role has started ref the QA MAnager.

 

She has totally isolated this split completely by creating a Quality Assurance and Environmental management system in which she has started creating documents which we already have in the QMS system in which I have produced and maintained.

 

She has isolated herself and her team from technical. She also reckons she is going to audit the systems and procedures and systems to ensure we are meeting practices.... the thing is the director is backing this (on holiday at the momenrt) so I can not speak to him as yet as this happened when i was on holiday...

 

This is a nightmare and with 3 days of this so far this is not going to work except only damage the business.

 

What are your thoughts....

[QAGB]

OK people this role has started ref the QA MAnager.

 

She has totally isolated this split completely by creating a Quality Assurance and Environmental management system in which she has started creating documents which we already have in the QMS system in which I have produced and maintained.

 

She has isolated herself and her team from technical. She also reckons she is going to audit the systems and procedures and systems to ensure we are meeting practices.... the thing is the director is backing this (on holiday at the momenrt) so I can not speak to him as yet as this happened when i was on holiday...

 

This is a nightmare and with 3 days of this so far this is not going to work except only damage the business.

 

What are your thoughts....

 

Hi aps,

 

Oh boy, that is indeed a nightmare, and not exactly the easiest problem to fix, now that you guys already made a decision.

 

Perhaps you are due another discussion with the director when back from vacation. I hate to tell you to go to HR or directly above because that most assuredly will create tension between yourself, the director, and the QA Manager.

 

The best you can do is have a meeting and submit ideas for QA and Technical functions and explain the difficulties you are having. Also, you can bring in the procedures and documents you already have as proof, and make sure that everyone knows you are willing to share those documents and as such should not need separate ones.

 

It seems so hard to get everyone to see how much we try to compromise (I'm having one of those days too), but the best you can do is keep trying. I think they have motives because they waited for you to go on vacation to make these interesting changes (I could be wrong). If it seems like you aren't getting anywhere, you should definitely start weighing other options aka "jump ship" as Simon stated earlier.

 

QAGB

[aps]

Hi This has not turned out very well.

 

The role the QA manager has is not what was discussed. Her team are glorified cleaners with a title or Quality Assurance.????

 

However she has started to take over the washing of all PPE, changing the colour of PPE and also meddling in with the QMS as she done a new Organisation chart of the site in which the QMS has already got this but she wanted it under her new management system "Quality Assurance and Environmental Management Systems" I mean what the hell is this. I have spoke to the director to tell him to tell her to keep out of the QMS as she reports to him and he asked me how is it going. All I said was she needs to reel her neck in or we could be in trouble on audit as she is changing things and not running it passed me. She is a law onto her self and swanning around like she owns the place and he is letting her

 

rant over    

[GFW01]

Is it unusual for a Technical Manager to report to the Production Lead ( a recent change in my company), rather than to CEO, as was the case previously?

Also, I have concerns about QA/technical functions being moved over to production operatives - such as goods-in receipt and testing, internal testing, hygiene monitoring (ATP), and internal audits (GMP/Hygiene) and Brittle substances. We work to BRCGS, where it is clear that auditors must be independent, qualified and competent. - but this is going unheeded.

 

I see this a compromsise of the food safety and quality functions maintained by Technical/QA based on cost-reduction. However, I would appreciate hearing any other views, interpretations and experiences. Would you advise consulting with BRCGS or CB?

 

Thanks.

[pHruit]

Is it unusual for a Technical Manager to report to the Production Lead ( a recent change in my company), rather than to CEO, as was the case previously?

Also, I have concerns about QA/technical functions being moved over to production operatives - such as goods-in receipt and testing, internal testing, hygiene monitoring (ATP), and internal audits (GMP/Hygiene) and Brittle substances. We work to BRCGS, where it is clear that auditors must be independent, qualified and competent. - but this is going unheeded.

 

I see this a compromsise of the food safety and quality functions maintained by Technical/QA based on cost-reduction. However, I would appreciate hearing any other views, interpretations and experiences. Would you advise consulting with BRCGS or CB?

 

Thanks.

 

Depends what you mean by "production lead", but there are a plethora of different reporting structures out there. If the "production" side looks after a broad range of operations activities and the other reporting structures are more about sales/admin/finance then it could make sense, but in any case it shouldn't be a problem provided you've got the support and resource required.

As for production doing some of the checks, again this isn't unheard of, and it depends to an extent on the structure and the nature of the checks - if they're basic tests (ATP isn't exactly rocket surgery) then provided staff are trained and there is a system to monitor proficiency then I wouldn't see it as an issue. Indeed one could argue that it frees up technical to have more time for meatier things. Similar for brittle materials - checking some stuff off against a list *should* be relatively trivial, but there should be regular oversight to make sure its working IMO.

 

Taking action that in effect could be reporting yourselves to your CB for noncompliance is possibly an extreme step, and it's something I'd only be considering if there was a genuine food safety risk - the sort of thing that would mean I'd also be talking to the EHO too. If it's really that bad then I'd do it, but then whilst I value my job, I value the safety of consumers more. Hopefully you're some way from that stage, so it's a question of finding out how to convince the CEO/board as to the basic necessities. Money is an effective one, so the "we'll lose all of these high-value customers if we're decertified" can work, but maybe just going through the relevant part of the standard with them (if not already tried) and explaining why it's needed is the place to begin.

[zanorias]

I agree with pHruit's comments. I'd be very blunt with the directors, show them exactly which and how many clauses you would be failing to comply with, and thus X NCs = X grade, and that's before the audit begins. They can then translate that to commercial consequences which may be the kick up the backside necessary.

If you can find things for production to do - as pHruit says, some are basic and potentially can be done by production staff - make sure you justify it in terms of food safety & quality, not just because it's cheaper.
When I was QA at a BRC certified meat based manufacturer I did pre-production hygiene inspections, including ATP swabs. Directors then decided it would be cheaper for production to do that and free up my time rather than invest in more technical staff. It was amazing how instantly the cleaners "improved", leaving less visible debris and the ATP results vastly improved too. Coincidentally nothing needed re-cleaning and production could start quicker. Fortunately we then got a new TM who put an end to this quickly and before any auditors questioned it.

[GFW01]

Thanks zanorias and pHruit. Appreciate your responses. I agree and have conceded that certain functions, such as ATP, can and perhaps should be done by operatives, but with due oversight to ensure that they are being done correctly. The issue for me is holding responsibility for FS/Quality, but having no direct jurisdiction, which undermines the role. BRCGS is clear that internal audits should be independent of the areas being audited, plus auditors need to trained, competent etc. It will be a case, I think, of highlighting  the clauses again (they've been ignored thus far), and then summarising for SMT prior to BRCGS audit, with implications, both credentially and commercially laid out. Forgive me, but I've been doing this for 18 years, with top grade every time - it's frustrating having to deal with seniors with limited experience of the food industry and none of BRCGS, who barnstorm in with unchecked agendas. I do believe our customer base will be alarmed at this change - but I guess the company may finally have to find out the hard way. Thanks again.

 

[zoelawton]

Hi, 

 

I completely understand. 

 

I am 'Senior Quality Control' however it's technically Quality Manager, with all the Technical Mangers work included. 

 

My director has all the knowledge of quality / specifications etc and the Tech manager has all the knowledge of everything technical, BRC related etc. 

 

Neither of them are in the office much so any email i send i just send to both of them to cover all ground!