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EMP - Floor Drains?

Environmental Monitoring Floor drains EMP

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Mark Richardson

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Posted 20 October 2020 - 04:52 PM

Hello folks!  Our team is getting mixed information regarding swabbing of floor drains for pathogens.  They are a direct indicator of Listeria in an area since they are the final point of flow from cleaning.  However others suggest that you will always find Listeria in floor drains.  We have a comprehensive program which is serving us well.  I'm interested to hear perspectives regarding floor drains and swabbing, pathogens? 

 

Also, understanding post sanitation swabs may be negated by the presence of sanitizer, post sanitation and pre-op swabbing timing is important.  A dry operation that must be wet washed requires a dry step.  Timing is important and I'm interested in any thoughts others have  here as well.  Thank you in advance!


Edited by Jacob Timperley, 20 October 2020 - 09:10 PM.


Padfoot

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Posted 20 October 2020 - 05:14 PM

I always swab the floor and drains, you must treat the floor and drains if you find it. I was getting positive results on a couple of drains and the floor; we increased the sanitation frequency on the drains and I have not received positive results in months. You can also use drain quat rings.



Ryan M.

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Posted 20 October 2020 - 06:46 PM

A valid and good EMP program will include swabbing of drains.  It is completely nonsense to NOT swab the drain because you will "always" find listeria in the drain.  No, this is invalid, illogical thinking.  Listeria in drains can be eliminated with effective and frequent cleaning.  If you can't seem to get rid of listeria in drains then you need to:

 

  1. Evaluate drain construction.  Eliminate any harborage areas as much as possible.  May mean new drains need to be installed.
  2. Evaluate drain cleaning / sanitation program.  Ensure all personnel are properly trained.
  3. Evaluate the cleaning frequency.  This will depend on where the drain is located and what materials go down the drain.

There was a former QA manager in my current facility who had that thinking of "why swab drains there's listeria?"  Idiot.  I'm sorry, but it is just an idiotic statement to make.  Our cleaning program for drains was pretty bad, and still is pretty bad.  BUT...we were saved with ECOLAB's BOOST.  Honestly, I don't mean to sell it, but we do not frequently take apart, dismantle and brush clean our drains.  We use ECOLAB BOOST in the drains foaming them daily.  It eliminated all of our drain cleaning and listeria issues in a few months.  An amazing product...we'd use it in all of our equipment if it wasn't so dang expensive.

 

Good luck!



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QualityKel

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Posted 20 October 2020 - 07:24 PM

Listeria can travel all over the place. It is not always found in drains, but can hide there if they are not cleaned and maintained. Drains are always a scary thing to swab. If they are not properly cleaned, swabbed, and monitored, Listeria and other unwanted bacteria can travel throughout the facility fairly quickly. All it takes is someone to walk over the drain, a flooded drain, bugs, etc. to help the Listeria travel everywhere in your facility. If you don't take care of the drains, problems will arise like heavy rains. 



SQFconsultant

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Posted 20 October 2020 - 07:46 PM

We had a lab come in and map out and train staff for swabbing and discussion of all applicable regulations, etc. That way no more "what others said" situations.


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Charles.C

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Posted 21 October 2020 - 12:32 AM

Hello folks!  Our team is getting mixed information regarding swabbing of floor drains for pathogens.  They are a direct indicator of Listeria in an area since they are the final point of flow from cleaning.  However others suggest that you will always find Listeria in floor drains.  We have a comprehensive program which is serving us well.  I'm interested to hear perspectives regarding floor drains and swabbing, pathogens? 

 

Also, understanding post sanitation swabs may be negated by the presence of sanitizer, post sanitation and pre-op swabbing timing is important.  A dry operation that must be wet washed requires a dry step.  Timing is important and I'm interested in any thoughts others have  here as well.  Thank you in advance!

Hi Mark,

 

The Product/Process are unfortunately not mentioned. Such can be critical, eg see this Post/thread -

 

https://www.ifsqn.co...em/#entry109592


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


SalH

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Posted 24 October 2020 - 01:12 PM

You may be told there is no point in swabbing drains because you will always find Listeria in the drains but this is an indication of the level of cleanliness achieved or hygienic design of the drain. Listeria mono forms bio films that you cannot see, (unless you really haven’t cleaned properly). Detergent cleaning alone may not remove the biofilm. Listeria on the upper exposed surface of the film will usually be removed and if you swab post cleaning you may get a negative/ not detected result. However there will be Listeria left within the film and protected by it and as the Listeria grows it goes to the surface again. Specialist chemicals are now coming on to the market to both breakdown the biofilms and also those to spray on to a surface to reveal where the biofilm is. 

swabbing has two purposes to try to identify potential harbourage points and as a separate exercise to verify the effectiveness of the clean. So determine the purpose of swabbing first.
 



Charles.C

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 09:42 AM

You may be told there is no point in swabbing drains because you will always find Listeria in the drains but this is an indication of the level of cleanliness achieved or hygienic design of the drain. Listeria mono forms bio films that you cannot see, (unless you really haven’t cleaned properly). Detergent cleaning alone may not remove the biofilm. Listeria on the upper exposed surface of the film will usually be removed and if you swab post cleaning you may get a negative/ not detected result. However there will be Listeria left within the film and protected by it and as the Listeria grows it goes to the surface again. Specialist chemicals are now coming on to the market to both breakdown the biofilms and also those to spray on to a surface to reveal where the biofilm is. 

swabbing has two purposes to try to identify potential harbourage points and as a separate exercise to verify the effectiveness of the clean. So determine the purpose of swabbing first.
 

As I previously noted the raw material etc is unknown.

 

Just for example, try processing raw seafood without frequently detecting L.monocytogenes in the environment.

 

It's all about risk assessment !!


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


kfromNE

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Posted 26 October 2020 - 01:16 PM

What products do you make?. Like Charles said, it's all about the risk assessment. In our RTE rooms/areas - we swab drains. In our raw meat products rooms - we don't swab the drains.



Mark Richardson

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Posted 03 November 2020 - 03:42 PM

Hi all, thank you for your replies.  our products are dehydrated spices and seasonings. Very low water activity and cleaning with water only as necessary for allergen and kosher cleanouts.  But this water cleanout occurs daily due to multiple changeovers necessary.  We just installed a new MDS system as well for testing.  







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