18 replies to this topic

[Serious]

Hi,

 

Is anyone using pH as a CCP for the support of growth of Listeria?

 

[Serious]

Hi,

 

Is anyone using pH as a CCP for the support of growth of Listeria?

 

[Scampi]

no, but I use it for salmonella destruction

[Serious]

WHAT WOULD BE YOUR CRITICAL LIMITS AND CORRECTIVE ACTIONS THEN?

[Scampi]

my CCP is a pH of 10 and no less

 

ALL product is held for rewash, and the line is stopped

[Serious]

Thank You Scampi.

[GMO]

Hi,

 

Is anyone using pH as a CCP for the support of growth of Listeria?

 

No.  Mostly because there are better controls in place in every site I've worked in.  So for example, in tomato based sauces you'd sometimes be the right side of pH but the cooking process would be a better control and was in place for every other product.  Also I remember having this discussion with a supplier once who said pH was their control for Listeria and I said "for growth or survival?"  Because if it's just so it doesn't grow that might be fine if what it's used for next would change the pH so surviving cells could then grow.

 

What is your product if you're ok to share?

Edited by GMO, 10 April 2025 - 11:22 AM.

[Serious]

Thanks GMO.

We make Ready to Eat Mayonnaise based sauces & condiments, so no cooking..

Our Client seems to want us to get pH of every batch to prove they are all under 4.5, therefore could not support the life & growth of listeria Mono

[AZuzack]

Are you adding something that lowers the pH or is the product naturally low in pH?  I wouldn't make it a CCP unless it is something like fermented meat that has food safety limits around the time it takes for the pH to drop below 5.3.  But my background is meat and my example isn't for listeria.  If you're in low-acid canned goods or orange juice then you would have different criteria.  What is the product?

[GMO]

I've never worked in condiments but a batch by batch pH is not an unreasonable ask in my view.  It would be typical in a lot of businesses to measure pH or total acidity to check the batch has been made to standard but more from a quality perspective (and not a CCP).  So even if you do test, to my mind it's verification or monitoring (depending on how representative your testing is) of your controls which is presumably around recipe management and is a prerequisite?  But you can have verification or monitoring for a prerequisite.  That is ok and is often done.  Think about cleaning?  We monitor that to death and validate and verify it yet wouldn't call it a CCP.

[Scampi]

I would NOT being using pH as a CCP for listeria control for your products------once opened at home and a dirty knife or spoon enters the jar.........theoretically, that's all it would take

 

Listeria needs to be a seek and destroy management style, particularly since your process does not have a lethality step

 

https://www.canada.c...-eat-foods.html

 

http://inspection.ca...a-monocytogenes

[Setanta]

Are you able to get or use pasteurized eggs?   

[Serious]

Are you able to get or use pasteurized eggs?   

Yes we are.

[Serious]

Are you adding something that lowers the pH or is the product naturally low in pH?  I wouldn't make it a CCP unless it is something like fermented meat that has food safety limits around the time it takes for the pH to drop below 5.3.  But my background is meat and my example isn't for listeria.  If you're in low-acid canned goods or orange juice then you would have different criteria.  What is the product?

The product is naturally low in pH. It is RTE spreads, Mayo or Dairy based... no additives

I guess if recipes are followed every week the pH should not vary much from batch to batch?

It then seems overkilled to have it as a CCP, don't you think?

[Serious]

I would NOT being using pH as a CCP for listeria control for your products------once opened at home and a dirty knife or spoon enters the jar.........theoretically, that's all it would take

 

Listeria needs to be a seek and destroy management style, particularly since your process does not have a lethality step

 

https://www.canada.c...-eat-foods.html

 

http://inspection.ca...a-monocytogenes

 

Thanks for the Links.

[GMO]

The product is naturally low in pH. It is RTE spreads, Mayo or Dairy based... no additives

I guess if recipes are followed every week the pH should not vary much from batch to batch?

It then seems overkilled to have it as a CCP, don't you think?

 

I suppose can you prove your recipes don't have variance?  Is there a risk of variability?  

 

Monitoring your pH doesn't mean it has to be a CCP...  But your question above, "the pH should not vary much from batch to batch?" suggests there is some doubt.  Get rid of the doubt... Do some work.  Find out how grossly wrong your recipe would have to be to be a food safety risk.  

[Madam A. D-tor]

Back 23 years in time, I worked at a company that produces deli salads. Also called bread and toast salads. Like yours, mayonaise and dairy based salads, mostly eaten on a sandwhich.

 

pH was one of the important CCPs.

At that time, the product was accidified and we used preservatives that activates in an acid environment (I think, these were potassium sorbate and benzoic acid, but i am not sure).

Actually the food safety of the product was guaranteed with horde technology and includes: pH, storage temperature, temperature work envorinment, cooked raw materials, accidification and sealed pack.

the pH was measured after mixing and the limit was 4,2 - 4,6 depending on the recipe.

The check of the pH after every mixing batch, was to verify/monitor if the recipe was complete/ correct mixed and to predict, the shelf life wil be reached.

Thinking of it: in these days it was probably for yeasts and moulds.

 

However recently I audited a company producing this kind of deli salads. pH was also in their process a CCP.

[GMO]

I think the intersection of product life and pH might be an interesting challenge on using pH as a CCP.  I'm still reluctant though.  So for example, if you give a sandwich a life of 3 days vs. a sandwich with low pH ingredients having 7 days life, the latter probably does have some food safety protective impacts from the pH.  You could also argue that despite your best controls, from time to time Listeria will inevitably be present in some of your ingredients, especially fresh vegetables.  But also there will be little environments within that sandwich, (like where the bread touches the filling and moisture transfers over life) where there could be pockets of higher pH and, hence, higher risk.  So is controlling the pH of your mix actually doing what you think it does?

 

But with the mayonnaise example, would the ingredients not all be heat treated (or be inherently stable like vinegar or oil) to significantly reduce the risk of presence of Listeria before mixing or am I getting confused?

[m.erzetti]

I think you sohould answer a this question: Are you reduce the ph of your product for the food safety? if yes you should anlyse the risk of development of listeria. You have to consider your risk and the application of the decion tree! What is your result? I think a "control" (CCP or oPRP) for each batch is essential to have a process safety (you wrote your process is not standardizated for the ph).