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Can QC do all of the internal audits and inspections?

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Ansh3

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 02:49 AM

I had a pretty interesting conversation with our QC manager. 

 

The idiot is new, has no food safety experience at all. Was managing transports, and will be facing an audit for the first time for BRC. While I was preparing the fool for the audit, he came up with the following question and then went up to our CEO to justify and implement it.

 

In BRC food safety clause on page 18 , under internal audit, the last clause says,

 

" In addition to the internal audit programme there shall be a programme of documented inspections to ensure that the factory environment and processing equipment is maintained in a suitable condition for food production. "

 

His POV: It says inspection , so why does it have to be internal audit team. QC team can do monthly inspections.

 

When asked about , auditing their own work ...Bang came the reply...." QC is independent of production".

 

I just left it there. 

 

Would love to hear from the forum what they think of it.

 



Tony-C

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 03:53 AM

Hi PTGC,
 
Not the answer you want to hear but I see no reason why QC staff cannot carry out these inspections providing they are adequately trained.
 
Kind regards,
 
Tony


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Mandark

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 08:02 AM

Hi PTGC,

 

Internal audit is different from QC monitoring and inspections. Yes, QC can be part of the internal audit team but the team shall be composed of trained staff from interdisciplinary areas. BRC Food v.7, 3.4 lay down the requirements of Internal Audit.

 

Regards,

Mandark



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melvin003

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 11:49 AM

Hi,

 

            Quality Assurance will be monitoring /Inspecting production to ensure that the factory environment and processing equipment is maintained in a suitable condition for food production.Also I feel QC is independent of production.

 

 

Regards

Melvin



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Scampi

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 02:03 PM

this is a tricky one..........where I was previously; QC only did independent checks of regular monitoring (more like verification) and PRODUCTION did all other routine monitoring tasks. This really does depend on the size of the organization. Having QC perform all the inspections and monitoring can lead to potential problems (like being swayed against production) but more imporatantly CAUSING PRODUCTION TO NOT BUY IN!!!

 

If production is not responsible for maintaining food safety and quality........you will ALWAYS be fighting one department against the other

 

I do not belive QC should EVER be soley responsible for motioning, but should be in an oversight position ensuring that everything is being done correctly and implementing corrective actions when a deviation occurs.

 

ALSO auditors can and will ask employees on the floor questions, if they have no idea of what's required, checked, hold and release process etc. it could and has been enough to fail an on site audit

 

 

It does however, speak volumes about the company that they hired a QC manger that has zero background....sounds like they wanted a YES MAN and not someone who will actually do the right thing....i think you may be headed under the  bus


Please stop referring to me as Sir/sirs


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Ansh3

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Posted 02 May 2018 - 12:37 AM

this is a tricky one..........where I was previously; QC only did independent checks of regular monitoring (more like verification) and PRODUCTION did all other routine monitoring tasks. This really does depend on the size of the organization. Having QC perform all the inspections and monitoring can lead to potential problems (like being swayed against production) but more imporatantly CAUSING PRODUCTION TO NOT BUY IN!!!

 

If production is not responsible for maintaining food safety and quality........you will ALWAYS be fighting one department against the other

 

I do not belive QC should EVER be soley responsible for motioning, but should be in an oversight position ensuring that everything is being done correctly and implementing corrective actions when a deviation occurs.

 

ALSO auditors can and will ask employees on the floor questions, if they have no idea of what's required, checked, hold and release process etc. it could and has been enough to fail an on site audit

 

 

It does however, speak volumes about the company that they hired a QC manger that has zero background....sounds like they wanted a YES MAN and not someone who will actually do the right thing....i think you may be headed under the  bus

 

Thanks, Scampi.... 

 

" You may be headed under the  bus" ...My thoughts exactly.

 

Anyways, we have an " A" in BRC for years now and he has managed to convince the management, that if it slips down to " B " or "C" it's ok cause customers only want to know if we have BRC cert and not the level. And yes , I told them it's written on the cert.

 

The way we are structured, QC verification is part of the process documents. Say everyday sanitation is done by production and verified by QC. And similar documentation in product processing as well.

 

If we let QC do the monthly inspections, then they would be inspecting their own work.

 

Also, we have painstakingly build a two-member internal audit team. They are to do monthly GMP audit and annual audit along with other functions. I believe he is apprehensive of an independent team finding NC's in his job and hence wants it to be stopped. This when he has no background whatsoever.



Ansh3

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Posted 02 May 2018 - 12:50 AM

 

Hi PTGC,
 
Not the answer you want to hear but I see no reason why QC staff cannot carry out these inspections providing they are adequately trained.
 
Kind regards,
 
Tony

 

 

Thanks Tony , I realized that the post was written in a rage. I have single-handedly managed BRC certification for a few years now and managed to keep it at A and this guy may take it downhill cause he is not ready to learn.

 

However, if you know how to edit a post, I would love to take out few words there.

 

On your response to why QC can't do the inspections, two things:

 

  • The way we are structured the process documents are verified each day by QC. Would that not amount to inspecting their own work?
  • Second,  in my POV the clause is put under Internal audit heading and should be under Internal audit KRA. It would be different if we didn't have an internal audit team. We have two who have been doing the job for few years. Do you think it makes sense to pull it from there and give to QC.

 

Would love to hear your thoughts.



Tony-C

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Posted 02 May 2018 - 04:10 AM

Thanks Tony , I realized that the post was written in a rage. I have single-handedly managed BRC certification for a few years now and managed to keep it at A and this guy may take it downhill cause he is not ready to learn.

 

However, if you know how to edit a post, I would love to take out few words there.

 

On your response to why QC can't do the inspections, two things:

 

  • The way we are structured the process documents are verified each day by QC. Would that not amount to inspecting their own work?
  • Second,  in my POV the clause is put under Internal audit heading and should be under Internal audit KRA. It would be different if we didn't have an internal audit team. We have two who have been doing the job for few years. Do you think it makes sense to pull it from there and give to QC.

 

Would love to hear your thoughts.

 

 

Hi Ansh3,
 
They wouldn't necessarily be auditing their own work and there isn't the same need for independence, from BRC Guidance:
 
These hygiene and fabrication-based inspections assess standards of cleaning, equipment, building fabrication and personal hygiene to ensure that high standards are maintained and a safe, hygienic production environment is in place.
Line start-up checks, which may occur daily or at shift changes in many operations, can form part of this inspection programme.
Individuals responsible for completing these inspections should be suitably trained for the systems they are checking.
The absolute requirements for independence identified in clause 3.4.2 do not always apply to these inspections; for example, it would be acceptable for line start-up checks to be carried out by line supervisors or managers.
 
My view would be to do what works best for you. If you already have a trained team it would make sense to use them.
 
Sometimes there is an alternate agenda, maybe this guy is thinking if he can get QC to do all the audits he can get some brownie points with the Boss by saving two salaries.
 
Kind regards,
 
Tony


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Charles.C

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Posted 02 May 2018 - 08:32 AM

From BRC7 -
 

 

3.4.2 Internal audits shall be carried out by appropriately trained, competent auditors. Auditors shall be independent (i.e. not audit their own work).

 

Seems fairly mandatory.  I guess it depends what you are specifically talking about.

 

Strictly, afaik, the Guidance is supposed to be not auditable (especially if you've never seen it) so perhaps BRC should be more careful with what their Code says.


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


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Tony-C

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Posted 02 May 2018 - 11:19 AM

From BRC7 -

 

 

3.4.2 Internal audits shall be carried out by appropriately trained, competent auditors. Auditors shall be independent (i.e. not audit their own work).

 

Seems fairly mandatory.  I guess it depends what you are specifically talking about.

 

Strictly, afaik, the Guidance is supposed to be not auditable (especially if you've never seen it) so perhaps BRC should be more careful with what their Code says.

 

 

Hi Charles,
 
These are 'documented inspections' in addition to internal audits as per 3.4.4:
In addition to the internal audit programme there shall be a programme of documented inspections ........
These inspections shall include:
• hygiene inspections to assess cleaning and housekeeping performance
• fabrication inspections to identify risks to the product from the building or equipment.
 
Kind regards,
 
Tony


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redfox

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 02:28 AM

Hello,

 

Anybody can do internal audit as long as he underwent training on IA to qualify. And he should not audit his own works or process.

 

regards,

redfox



Ansh3

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 02:29 AM

More updates :

 

So this situation now is increasingly amusing than irksome. 

 

This so-called QC manager faced an ISO audit where the auditor asked about calibration acceptance limit. Ended up giving our ignorant manager a formula.

 

Post audit he gave the formula to his team to figure out what it is?

 

They asked for a hint. " Google"

 

They asked, " Why didn't you ask the auditor what the formula was for ?"

 

They got a stare.

 

I saw him going all berserk while I am sat enjoying my coffee.

..

.....

........

..........

............

.................

.....................

........................

 

The formula was a simple standard deviation formula. 

 

I love my company!



Charles.C

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 03:31 AM

More updates :

 

So this situation now is increasingly amusing than irksome. 

 

This so-called QC manager faced an ISO audit where the auditor asked about calibration acceptance limit. Ended up giving our ignorant manager a formula.

 

Post audit he gave the formula to his team to figure out what it is?

 

They asked for a hint. " Google"

 

They asked, " Why didn't you ask the auditor what the formula was for ?"

 

They got a stare.

 

I saw him going all berserk while I am sat enjoying my coffee.

..

.....

........

..........

............

.................

.....................

........................

 

The formula was a simple standard deviation formula. 

 

I love my company!

 

IMHO no formulae involving standard deviations are simple. And ditto to their interpretation.

 

I get the impression that yr QC Manager is in a sitting-target-type situation. Usually does not bode well for the Company.


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


Charles.C

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 03:34 AM

Hello,

 

Anybody can do internal audit as long as he underwent training on IA to qualify. And he should not audit his own works or process.

 

regards,

redfox

 

Hi redfox,

 

Agree. However sometimes "own" can be ambiguous.

 

Perhaps your "And" should be a "But". :smile:


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


redfox

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 06:36 AM

Hello Charles,

 

A process owner should not do internal auditing on his own job/process. Ex: pasteurizing supervisor can't do internal audit on the pasteurization process though he is an authorized/qualified IA because he is the owner of the process. It must be done from other section/dept of the company, to avoid bias in his findings due to his personal interest.

 

regards,

redfox



Charles.C

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 07:57 AM

Hello Charles,

 

A process owner should not do internal auditing on his own job/process. Ex: pasteurizing supervisor can't do internal audit on the pasteurization process though he is an authorized/qualified IA because he is the owner of the process. It must be done from other section/dept of the company, to avoid bias in his findings due to his personal interest.

 

regards,

redfox

 

Hi redfox,

 

It's just a terminology thing.

 

From an IA POV I prefer the Auditing Demarcation to be based on "Activities", not "Ownership of Processes".


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C






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