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Engineers! Why don't they follow the rules?


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Simon

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 08:18 PM

Totally seperate footwear for high and low areas, staff are not allowed to remove wellingtons from low care changing room, it is a disciplinary offence to be wearing wellingtons outside of production areas.
We do occasionally get Listeria in the high care area, but a thorough clean usually does the job, the biggest problem is controlling engineers roaming the factory at weekends after all the equiopment has been cleaned on Friday night.

I noticed this quote from Jarve from the shoe sanitizing thread and it got me thinking about engineers. My experience is that engineers are the most difficult people to get on board with the rules and procedures. They are a law unto themselves. I hear the same from other colleagues and members of the forum.

What are the engineers like in your place of work?

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Simon

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 09:00 PM

BUMP for my new topic cause I think it's a good one. :smile:


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Charles.C

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Posted 05 August 2009 - 08:42 AM

Dear Simon,

IMHO, they are often one of the most under-appreciated groups of workers in the factory (after the QA unit of course).

1. On call 24/7.
2. frequently working in inacesssible and hazardous locations,
3. receiving very little recognition for their maintenance and installation efforts
4. payment often not commensurate with the above.

It’s true that they can be a major example of ignoring internal hygiene rules but some allowances hv to be made as a result of items like 1-4 above. One reason for this occurrence IMEX is simple lack of communication between the the Engg unit and Production/QA teams, not so different to the occasional difference of opinion between QA and Production also. However I do agree that the Engineering discipline does seem to selectively appeal to (or create) personalities with a tendency to construct their own SOPs :smile: .

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 04:53 PM

I´ll play devil´s advocate here. If you have an emergency, which is usually when engineers are roaming around the factory, you´re not gonna be thinking about hygiene. OK, so of course they shouldn´t be spitting inside, or not washing their hands, but if the idea is to repair a machine as soon as possible, it should be a SOP to clean after they´ve finished. Save them and everyone else a headache.
For regular maintenance, they should be informed and reminded about all the rules though.
And in fact, they are colorful characters, with an ego so big they have to ride in pick up trucks to carry their ego in back.



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Posted 07 August 2009 - 08:59 AM

Quite honestly most engineers I've met including the current incumbents are just plain stupid. They can understand the workings of complex gearboxes and plc boards but try to explain why they should wash their hands before fixing a sanwhich depositor and it's like trying to explain quantum physics. I guess they are just wired differently, most of the "thick" kids I went to school with did things like metal work and woodwork, whereas those with a slight ability to read did english maths and computer science type topics. Similarly the good looking girls did cookery and needlework and the plain janes did shorthand and typing........ :whistle:

Harsh but fair????



Simon

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 12:17 PM

Thick, stupid, egos…Ouch! I knew this topic would create some passion. :smile:

Engineers are wonderful human beings. :helpplease: Just think of all of their painstaking research that has led to our modern world. Maybe we wouldn’t be discussing this at all if Charles Babbage hadn’t ‘given it a go’. Do you think he would have bothered to wear a hairnet?

In all seriousness engineers are not thick, far from it. They are not a different breed, they are humans just like Quality Managers, and so there must be other reasons why they don’t follow the rules. I think it’s a valid discussion to explore why they may not follow the rules and how we may be able to motivate them to do so.

Here He is:
Attached File  Boilersuit.jpg   17.03KB   86 downloads
Homo Enginerius

I made the attachment to help me better understand and learn the causes of error when I was studying for NEBOSH Health and Safety course recently. If we take non compliance with hygiene rules as just another form of error then I think it gives us some ideas on why they occur and how we can prevent them.

Attached File  Prevention_of_Error.pdf   182.03KB   288 downloads

Regards,
Simon


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Posted 14 August 2009 - 09:40 PM

:oops2: !
I'll learn this thing soon enough...
I was trying to quote Charles in my above post.
I can't believe that any of the 4 points would be an excuse to not follow procedure, or for you to give someone a pass because of that.
My current Engineer follows all the rules, where my previous one would not until I took disciplinary action. Then he would only comply with the rule that he was disciplined for. Not a good lot IMEX.
Thanks for letting me vent!

Tom

...and pardon my mistake on the previous post. :oops:


Charles.C

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 07:23 AM

Dear Tom,

...and pardon my mistake on the previous post.


Edited away, no problem. :smile:

Actually my post wasn't intended to be a blanket excuse, more of an explanation (perhaps a plea for mitigation :smile: ). Having stood with a water hose trying to cope with an ammonia burst whilst everybody around (legitimately) runs like **** for the exit has possibly created a degree of bias :biggrin: . On the other hand, one clearly doesn't set up a very high care production line area and cheerfully watch anyone in the wrong clothing casually trangress through it (hopefully including the Managing Director).

Rgds / Charles.C

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 09:00 AM

Hello,

Our Engineers are the best one to understand and support the efforts of the quality dpt.

Because of the emergency of the work they do sometimes, they might not be able to follow

each and every hygiene rule or food safety. But, when they do have time, they will always

follow them. They are really considerate.

Cheers to Engineers!



Kamwenji Njuma

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 06:37 AM

Hi All,

A good topic.Imagine a machine breaks down in middle of production sending sparks of fire in high care.The production staff panics.Whats the option-allow engineers in or make them follow the high care entry procedures?over to you guys



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Posted 23 August 2009 - 07:38 PM

Hi All,

A good topic.Imagine a machine breaks down in middle of production sending sparks of fire in high care.The production staff panics.Whats the option-allow engineers in or make them follow the high care entry procedures?over to you guys

If you want my opinion in this instance of course you deal with the emergency and if the product integrity is compromised or potentially contaminated you dispose of the product. This will be an exception though and the majority of the time there is plenty of time to follow the correct high care entry procedures.

Regards,
Simon

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 10:00 AM

Dear Simon,

Yes indeed.. IMEX engineers are the most stubborn workers (in term of personnel hygiene). Not only the personnel, but when they have visiting guests -such as contractors, their guests are stubborn as they did! I have to yell over and over to make them wearing proper dress and cover shoes before entering the production facility. And when I complaining this matter to the engineers, they just raise their hands up... And say: Its not my mandatory to explain it to the contractors... The other says: I am already had enough time telling them, but they just wont listen (on the other day I caught him not wearing mask on Hygiene Area).

Any suggestions regarding this matter? Quoting the engineer: I had enough of this.... :helpplease:


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Posted 31 August 2009 - 12:01 PM

I just had a bank holiday "I'm bored" chat with my Engineering Manager about this. IMEX, Engineering Managers are fine but it's their teams. We had a brainstorm and agreed this was why:

They don't make the product or handle it and so don't understand the risks.
They don't see the point.
They see themselves as above the rules.

And this was all from the Engineering Manager! I asked him "so how do we change opinions?" He shrugged!

IMEX, the only way to get them to change is by every time you see someone not following the rules to ask them to correct it and explain why then also get the Engineering Manager to do the same. It then results in them either understanding the reasons and seeing the consistency between Engineering and Technical Management or being worn down by nagging. The latter is less preferable but at least it's still effective.



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Posted 31 August 2009 - 12:19 PM

Consider me one of the lucky ones I guess. Our staff is great and often points out issues of Quality and Food Safety from other areas. Our lead is on the food safety team so that may help but even before that team was created last year he had a good attitude and expected his staff to follow the rules. :thumbup:

When we had issues with production staff toolboxes on the floor, our lead decided to enforce stricter rules on his people even though they were not the issue. He set up a self audit of his staff were they rotate an audit of themselves weekly to ensure good appearance and clean toolboxes that are free of foreign material issues. :clap:

They were also the hightlight of our ISO 22000 auidt this year. Of course the auditor did mention that he does not see that level of commitment at most places he has been.



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Posted 31 August 2009 - 02:16 PM

Dear Simon,

Yes indeed.. IMEX engineers are the most stubborn workers (in term of personnel hygiene). Not only the personnel, but when they have visiting guests -such as contractors, their guests are stubborn as they did! I have to yell over and over to make them wearing proper dress and cover shoes before entering the production facility. And when I complaining this matter to the engineers, they just raise their hands up... And say: Its not my mandatory to explain it to the contractors... The other says: I am already had enough time telling them, but they just wont listen (on the other day I caught him not wearing mask on Hygiene Area).

Any suggestions regarding this matter? Quoting the engineer: I had enough of this.... :helpplease:


Regards,

Arya

I think the example set by GMO below is a good way. It's amazing what this forum can do - even match-making. :smile:

I just had a bank holiday "I'm bored" chat with my Engineering Manager about this. IMEX, Engineering Managers are fine but it's their teams. We had a brainstorm and agreed this was why:

They don't make the product or handle it and so don't understand the risks.
They don't see the point.
They see themselves as above the rules.

And this was all from the Engineering Manager! I asked him "so how do we change opinions?" He shrugged!

IMEX, the only way to get them to change is by every time you see someone not following the rules to ask them to correct it and explain why then also get the Engineering Manager to do the same. It then results in them either understanding the reasons and seeing the consistency between Engineering and Technical Management or being worn down by nagging. The latter is less preferable but at least it's still effective.


I think the example of TS is vital also and is probably the ONLY way you are going to really do it so that it becomes self maintained.

Consider me one of the lucky ones I guess. Our staff is great and often points out issues of Quality and Food Safety from other areas. Our lead is on the food safety team so that may help but even before that team was created last year he had a good attitude and expected his staff to follow the rules. :thumbup:

When we had issues with production staff toolboxes on the floor, our lead decided to enforce stricter rules on his people even though they were not the issue. He set up a self audit of his staff were they rotate an audit of themselves weekly to ensure good appearance and clean toolboxes that are free of foreign material issues. :clap:

They were also the hightlight of our ISO 22000 auidt this year. Of course the auditor did mention that he does not see that level of commitment at most places he has been.


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a_andhika

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 05:23 AM

Good point! I've just learned that even a most stubborn person is still a human :smarty:

Regards,

Arya


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Posted 09 November 2009 - 11:08 AM

I have a good team of staff from engineering dept, who were initially a problem but they changed over a peroid of time after constant advices /training and monitoring.

They tend to look or behave tough but if you manage to communicate or set a good rapport, they are not an difficult to handle at all, IMEX. :rolleyes:


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J

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Posted 10 November 2009 - 02:44 AM

Interesting discussion. Unfortunately for GMO attitude starts at the top and unless you gain the respect or some sort of understanding from your Engineering Manager you are on to a loser.

The old school dinosaurs are dying off............ fortunately.

For me an Engineering department with a food safety attitude is the most valuable asset a company can have.

Regards,

Tony :smile:



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Posted 10 November 2009 - 04:24 PM

Engineers - you cannot live with them and you cannot live without them, The time, effort and stress required to get them onside is inordinate but still worth it.

Regards,
Simon


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Posted 26 January 2010 - 08:59 AM

Whats everyones veiws on risk assessing engineering activities within a food production area, with regards to foreign objects.....?? Should we control every item an engineer takes in with them to reduce the risk of loosing small parts/components which they would use to fix etc?

They already wear hairnets and overalls etc...but what about tools? Any comments would be good as I am currently risk assessing this topic :unsure:



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Posted 26 January 2010 - 09:23 PM

Hi Gemma,

It really depends on your process, products and sensitivity of your products. Also a bit on your customers and their expectations.
I have seen companies where engineers indeed only wear hairnets and wash their shoes. But I also know companies where all tools are checked every night and where external contractors are not allowed to bring their own tools.

A claerence procedure is now very common (BRC-requirement), but also tool reconcilations are more and more applied in food factories. You surely will understand that the magic word is hazard assessment.


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Madam A. D-tor

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 12:33 AM

Whats everyones veiws on risk assessing engineering activities within a food production area, with regards to foreign objects.....?? Should we control every item an engineer takes in with them to reduce the risk of loosing small parts/components which they would use to fix etc?

They already wear hairnets and overalls etc...but what about tools? Any comments would be good as I am currently risk assessing this topic :unsure:


Most people cover this by post maintenance work - inspection and clean up.

Tools should be monitored on hygiene audits, most people would use dedicated tools for high risk areas.

Kind regards,

Tony

Edited by Tony-C, 27 January 2010 - 12:35 AM.


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Posted 31 January 2010 - 07:29 PM

Whats everyones veiws on risk assessing engineering activities within a food production area, with regards to foreign objects.....?? Should we control every item an engineer takes in with them to reduce the risk of loosing small parts/components which they would use to fix etc?

They already wear hairnets and overalls etc...but what about tools? Any comments would be good as I am currently risk assessing this topic :unsure:

Just to add to what the other members have said...Tools can be controlled during normal day to day as all engineering activities that are required to be carried out should be known and therefore the tools required to carry out those activities can be identified, standardised and provided by the company. It may not be possible to have absolute control but one can and should try. Obviously wooden handled tools are not allowed.

I remember talking to an engineer at a food packaging factory several years ago. He had a large chocolate tin (Quality Street) on his mobile workbench, it was full of every washer, spring, screw, nut and bolt imaginable. When I asked where they were from and what they were for he proudly said “it’s what I’ve collected off the factory floor over the years…” :helpplease:

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 04:00 PM

Thank you for the replies!

Yikes, the quality street tin sounds scary! :o

Indeed it is a difficult area, we are only a service provider for fruit packing to Tesco and we operate out of hired cold stores so we sometimes have electricians but also equipment technicians to service our own packing machinery.

I was just confused with what to put on my risk assessment. e.g.

Risk: engineers components dropping into product

Present Controls: ISO 9001 certified techicians?

Would this be sufficient?



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Posted 11 February 2010 - 03:50 AM

Thank you for the replies!

Yikes, the quality street tin sounds scary! :o

Indeed it is a difficult area, we are only a service provider for fruit packing to Tesco and we operate out of hired cold stores so we sometimes have electricians but also equipment technicians to service our own packing machinery.

I was just confused with what to put on my risk assessment. e.g.

Risk: engineers components dropping into product

Present Controls: ISO 9001 certified techicians?

Would this be sufficient?


Hi Gemma,

Use approved suppliers and operate a permit to work system where there is an inspection and clean up after any work carried out.

Kind regards,

Tony :smile:





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