43 replies to this topic

[Scampi]

Boars head and the USDA should both be ashamed of themselves for this statement alone:

"However, Boar’s Head says any products now available at deli counters are not subject to recall."

 

As we all struggle daily to do our jobs, subject ourselves to audit after audit, creating an environment of continuous improvement, along comes these two who say, Who cares that people are dying and still going into hospital, our product is back on the shelf!!!

 

Clearly none of them bothered to read this:

 

https://www.whlawyer...n-Stevenson.pdf

 

But probably should have

 

Shame Shame Shame

[kconf]

It's tragic, Scampi. 

Not trying to defend either of them, but what do you think they should be doing? How's that statement so shameful? 

[MDaleDDF]

After reading the link you provided, it seems they're just giving customers information on what is and what is not affected by the recall.  If actually seems quite professional.    Stuff happens.   They're handling it the best such a situation can be handled it seems to me.  

 

Pulling that one statement out and presenting it out of context makes it sound bad though, yup....

[Setanta]

After reading the link you provided, it seems they're just giving customers information on what is and what is not affected by the recall.  If actually seems quite professional.    Stuff happens.   They're handling it the best such a situation can be handled it seems to me.  

 

Pulling that one statement out and presenting it out of context makes it sound bad though, yup....

 

 

The link provided in the OP was not the Boars' Head incident, but an earlier recall. 

[MDaleDDF]

The link provided in the OP was not the Boars' Head incident, but an earlier recall. 

If you click on the link she provided on the word 'says', it takes you to this link:

 

https://boarshead.co...cts-recall-2024

 

and hey, I'm not trying to soften what happened here.   9 people have died.   It's obviously tragic.   But I was just saying I don't see anything sinister in that statement if you read the entire link above.

 

I certainly agree with Scampi that the USDA, FDA and some other watchdogs aren't controlling everythig, but that's a large can of worms to open, and not as simple to find answers to as one would hope.   Reduction of food illness and death should always be the goal, but complete eradication of it is unlikely, especially in such a large global food supply.   There's likely always going to be the risk of illness and death when it comes to food unfortunately.  For now at least...

 

From the WHO:

 

"Each year, an estimated 600 million people fall ill and 420 000 people die from unsafe food, resulting in the loss of 33 million healthy life years (DALYs). Children under 5 years of age are at particularly high risk, with 125 000 children dying from foodborne diseases every year."

Edited by MDaleDDF, 29 August 2024 - 02:05 PM.

[Scampi]

My issue is that it seems VERY quick to release high risk product back into the marketplace, when the focus should be on regaining consumer trust not fluffing your bottom line.  I'm willing to bet (and i'm admittedly cynical) that they knew there was an issue long before contaminated product was identified

 

As for the WHO numbers, those include such things as water borne diseases and pesticide residue in food originating in 3rd world countries and we should NOT accept those in north america

 

 

Part of the responsibility in processing foods with a very high risk of pathogens such as listeria, is developing a seek and destroy mentality.  I refuse to accept that listeria cannot be eradicated from the marketplace.  That boils down to dollars and cents by the manufacturer

 

As for the regulator---my issue is this

Records released by the USDA's Food Safety and Inspection Service to CBS News through a Freedom of Information Act request tally 69 records of "noncompliances" flagged by the agency over the past year at the Jarratt plant.

It's unclear whether Boar's Head will face any penalties by the USDA for the repeat issues. Reports published by the agency so far show no "enforcement actions" taken against the company in the past year. A USDA spokesperson did not immediately respond to a request for comment. 

https://www.cbsnews....plant-listeria/

 

 

As well as this for 2023  

 

https://www.foodmanu...paign=copyright

Edited by Scampi, 29 August 2024 - 02:27 PM.

[MDaleDDF]

My issue is that it seems VERY quick to release high risk product back into the marketplace, when the focus should be on regaining consumer trust not fluffing your bottom line.  I'm willing to bet (and i'm admittedly cynical) that they knew there was an issue long before contaminated product was identified

 

As for the WHO numbers, those include such things as water borne diseases and pesticide residue in food originating in 3rd world countries and we should NOT accept those in north america

 

 

Part of the responsibility in processing foods with a very high risk of pathogens such as listeria, is developing a seek and destroy mentality.  I refuse to accept that listeria cannot be eradicated from the marketplace.  That boils down to dollars and cents by the manufacturer

 

As for the regulator---my issue is this

Records released by the USDA's Food Safety and Inspection Service to CBS News through a Freedom of Information Act request tally 69 records of "noncompliances" flagged by the agency over the past year at the Jarratt plant.

It's unclear whether Boar's Head will face any penalties by the USDA for the repeat issues. Reports published by the agency so far show no "enforcement actions" taken against the company in the past year. A USDA spokesperson did not immediately respond to a request for comment. 

https://www.cbsnews....plant-listeria/

 

 

As well as this for 2023  

 

https://www.foodmanu...paign=copyright

What makes you call their product high risk?   Do you know something we don't?   I personally doubt that they'd be releasing anything considered high risk at this point, considering what they're dealing with.   I wouldn't call getting back to business "fluffing the bottom line" personally.   What should they do then exactly?   Stop producing food?   Not a very sustainable business plan...

WHO numbers are indeed global and include any such illness that you mention.   Here's the CDC on the U.S.:

 

"CDC estimates 48 million people get sick, 128,000 are hospitalized, and 3,000 die from foodborne diseases each year in the United States"

Still some pretty sobering numbers....

 

I don't disagree with your statements on the non-compliance citings.  Neither do I with the lack of punishments from USDA/FDA when issues are found, especially recall issues where people are sickened or worse.  Without proving they knowingly were complicit though, that's probably how it will go.   More oversight and great responsibility by manufacturers will hopefully steer things a better direction in the future.  

 

As far as eradication of listeria in the entire food supply, I love your optimism, but I think we're pretty far from that at the moment.   Let's hope you're right, and some day complete eradication will be possible in the future.
 

Edited by MDaleDDF, 29 August 2024 - 02:38 PM.

[Scampi]

Deli meat has ALWAYS been classified as high risk

High-risk foods

High-risk foods / potentially hazardous foods are foods that are:

• neutral acidity (pH over 4.5 or “mild acids”)
• high in starch or protein
• moist

From the CDC

Overview

Listeria infection is a foodborne bacterial illness that can be very serious for pregnant women, people older than 65 and people with weakened immune systems. It's most commonly caused by eating improperly processed deli meats and unpasteurized milk products.

Listeria spreads easily among deli equipment, surfaces, hands, and food. Refrigeration does not kill Listeria, but reheating to a high enough temperature before eating will kill any germs that may be on these meats.Aug 8, 2024

 

https://www.makefood...a-in-deli-meat/

 

https://medicalxpres...at-slicers.html

 

https://marlerclark....ats-and-cheeses

 

 

I could go on and on

[MDaleDDF]

 

Deli meat has ALWAYS been classified as high risk

High-risk foods

High-risk foods / potentially hazardous foods are foods that are:

• neutral acidity (pH over 4.5 or “mild acids”)
• high in starch or protein
• moist

From the CDC

Overview

Listeria infection is a foodborne bacterial illness that can be very serious for pregnant women, people older than 65 and people with weakened immune systems. It's most commonly caused by eating improperly processed deli meats and unpasteurized milk products.

Listeria spreads easily among deli equipment, surfaces, hands, and food. Refrigeration does not kill Listeria, but reheating to a high enough temperature before eating will kill any germs that may be on these meats.Aug 8, 2024

 

https://www.makefood...a-in-deli-meat/

 

https://medicalxpres...at-slicers.html

 

https://marlerclark....ats-and-cheeses

 

 

I could go on and on

 

Oh fo sho.   I thought you meant their product was at a higher risk than normal due to the recent events.    I did not mean the classification as high risk.   That goes without saying.

 

There's a Bob Evans sausage plant near me, and from what one of the guys there has told me, it looks like a surgery room in there they clean it so hard, and their swabbing and testing is obviously thru the roof.  I know it is a very challenging environment to produce product in.

 

So that said, what should they do, stop producing product?   They suffered a worst case scenario, and that sucks, but seriously, what would you have them do?

 

Edit:   Interesting as well that the middle link you posted is about deli counters and not deli meat manufacturers.   It would be interesting to know what percentage of food borne illness comes from manufacturers, as opposed to operators such as restaurants, deli slicing counters, etc etc.

Edited by MDaleDDF, 29 August 2024 - 03:02 PM.

[Scampi]

I find it hard to believe that the plant has been thoroughly cleaned and is free of listeria   ( and I have lots of personnel experience in this particular subject matter)

 

 

Ultimately my issue is with the USDA/FDA   where politics take a back seat to food safety

[G M]

My issue is that it seems VERY quick to release high risk product back into the marketplace, when the focus should be on regaining consumer trust not fluffing your bottom line.  I'm willing to bet (and i'm admittedly cynical) that they knew there was an issue long before contaminated product was identified

 

...

As for the regulator---my issue is this

Records released by the USDA's Food Safety and Inspection Service to CBS News through a Freedom of Information Act request tally 69 records of "noncompliances" flagged by the agency over the past year at the Jarratt plant.

It's unclear whether Boar's Head will face any penalties by the USDA for the repeat issues. Reports published by the agency so far show no "enforcement actions" taken against the company in the past year. A USDA spokesperson did not immediately respond to a request for comment. 

https://www.cbsnews....plant-listeria/

 

...

 

Hadn't seen their NR's reported.  It does look like an above average rate for the facility (4x the 14/facility/year based on quarterly reports ) and a large potion of them seem to be related to pre-operational sanitation not being thorough -- a trend that could certainly have contributed to a resident pathogen flourishing.

[MDaleDDF]

I find it hard to believe that the plant has been thoroughly cleaned and is free of listeria   ( and I have lots of personnel experience in this particular subject matter)

 

 

Ultimately my issue is with the USDA/FDA   where politics take a back seat to food safety

Well you can certainly believe that if you choose to.   I don't know that I'd believe that personally.   After what they're going through, I'd find it hard to believe.  And that's not a knock on you or your experience, just mho.

I agree that there are many organizations that claim food safety is the goal, and many things get between the rubber meeting the road, as the old saying goes.

 

But you still haven't answered the question.  What exactly should Boar's Head do to move forward in terms you would find acceptable?  And I'm not being a smart ass, I'm legitimately interested in your response.

Edited by MDaleDDF, 29 August 2024 - 03:23 PM.

[G M]

I find it hard to believe that the plant has been thoroughly cleaned and is free of listeria   ( and I have lots of personnel experience in this particular subject matter)

 

 

Ultimately my issue is with the USDA/FDA   where politics take a back seat to food safety

 

What specifically do you think is missing?  With the FDA the lack of regular inspection and toothless warnings I get it, but the USDA-FSIS is doing those things.  Is someone supposed to go to jail every time a piece of equipment needs to be recleaned?

[TimG]

Having never worked in meat processing (thanks but no thanks'd the only one I applied for after a partial walkthrough) there were some things from the inspection report that stood out. Meat particulate spatter was a big one, especially the description (paraphrasing since the report isn't in front of me) of how after pulling off a meat processing guard that meat chunks fell out of the guard and were caked around the housing. They also said something about the smell 'filling the whole area' when they removed the guard.

 

Is that normal? 

[G M]

Having never worked in meat processing (thanks but no thanks'd the only one I applied for after a partial walkthrough) there were some things from the inspection report that stood out. Meat particulate spatter was a big one, especially the description (paraphrasing since the report isn't in front of me) of how after pulling off a meat processing guard that meat chunks fell out of the guard and were caked around the housing. They also said something about the smell 'filling the whole area' when they removed the guard.

 

Is that normal? 

 

No.  Not if sanitation and preoperational inspection are being done properly.  It's not a smoking gun either.

[Mistborn42]

Years of inspection reports clearly show that the plant’s HACCP system was nonexistent. It’s hard to understand how food could be produced under these conditions by this company, especially with the supposed oversight of FSIS inspectors.

 

Attached are 44 pages of Non-Compliance Reports from 08/01/2023 to 08/02/2024. What can we learn from this? It seems that even regulatory bodies might be cutting corners in their duties.

 

I firmly believe that one preventable food-related death is one too many. 

Attached Files

•  2024-08-27_240829_105958.pdf   7.5MB   29 downloads

[MDaleDDF]

Years of inspection reports clearly show that the plant’s HACCP system was nonexistent. It’s hard to understand how food could be produced under these conditions by this company, especially with the supposed oversight of FSIS inspectors.

 

Attached are 44 pages of Non-Compliance Reports from 08/01/2023 to 08/02/2024. What can we learn from this? It seems that even regulatory bodies might be cutting corners in their duties.

 

I firmly believe that one preventable food-related death is one too many. 

I don't think anyone would argue with anything you stated.  I think what Scampi is really getting at is why were these kinds of things noted and not held to correction by inspectors, and I couldn't agree more with that.  (My products are super low risk, and man, they wouldn't let me get away with the stuff they're writing up here.)   It's beyond me that it was allowed here without major CARs, forced shutdown until proper cleaning and sanitation procedures were instituted, etc.  The infractions are downright disgusting for sure.  But that's done and over with.

 

 Hopefully inspectors are taking it way more seriously now that people have died, and I can only assume that's the case.

But if we assume that is the case, and they've done everything we would do if we were hired to clean up the mess, what else is to be done other than go back to running product?  When is it ok to do so?   How much transparency should we expect from a huge company on internal procedures/paperwork/etc?

[kconf]

Not everything in this NR is pertaining to listeria outbreak. I do agree that it stinks though! 

 

It is extremely challenging to combat listeria in meat plants. It's just the nature of the industry. I have seen some factories having the pathogen consistently in their environment and product. As long as the strain is not L.mono, they continue their business. Having such facilities free of listeria is nearly impossible, in my opinion. 

[G M]

... It’s hard to understand how food could be produced under these conditions by this company, especially with the supposed oversight of FSIS inspectors.

 

Attached are 44 pages of Non-Compliance Reports from 08/01/2023 to 08/02/2024. What can we learn from this? It seems that even regulatory bodies might be cutting corners in their duties.

 

I firmly believe that one preventable food-related death is one too many. 

 

Hyperbole aside, I am surprised an administrative action or EIAO audit didn't occur with the frequent repetition of a few of those NRs. 

 

Our inspection personnel like to actively cite their own previous findings if anything repeats, making the problem receive more attention both from us and potential administrative reviewers, and I don't see that in these reports.

[Seathalos]

What specifically do you think is missing?  With the FDA the lack of regular inspection and toothless warnings I get it, but the USDA-FSIS is doing those things.  Is someone supposed to go to jail every time a piece of equipment needs to be recleaned?

Not to the extreme that a piece of equipment needs to be recleaned but if a company is having repeat NC's that pertain to major health risks the facility manager and owners should be held responsible for the missteps committed that lead to harm for their end consumers. Unfortunately "food safety is our up most priority" coming from anyone who isn't a QA/FS individual or have it as part of their background doesn't hold water imho, because we all know that cost and profits will almost always come first. 

Unless there is a monetary incentive or tangible consequences to these actions they wont be taken seriously by upper management as safety in all aspects is viewed simply as a cost instead of a prerequisite for running a business. And those that are responsible for the actions of the company/facility (owners, executives and facility managers) should held to the highest standard of making sure that their organization has the health and safety of their consumers, employees, and civilians in general as their top priorities 

[Lynx42]

A local news radio station had a soundbite from someone (in her 80's who loves liverwurst) hospitalized because of this and briefly mentioned that mold and mildew were found at one of the plants.  I didn't get the whole story, just the blurb they mentioned at the top of the hour.  

 

If that is the case, wouldn't they put out a statement acknowledging that and addressing the cleanup?  I'm not in manufacturing, so I don't really know, but I know when local restaurants are shut down after listeria or norovirus are found, the news story usually also mentions cleanup efforts.   

[Mistborn42]

what else is to be done other than go back to running product?  

 

Handle the owners in a manner similar to how the Chinese government dealt with the 2008 milk scandal. :)

 

It's a difficult question from a business perspective (what we will ever do without deli meat), but if food produced by your facility ends up causing harm or fatalities, the facility should rightfully be shut down, and top management should be held accountable.

 

The FDA and USDA need sharper teeth, especially for companies prioritizing profits over safety. But if history is any guide, we'll likely see new, poorly implemented regulations affecting the industry, with inadequate funding to match—much like what happened with FSMA (argue with me if you must, but there's plenty of evidence that the FDAs funding is severely lacking...which I guess is good for business ).

[G M]

...

It's a difficult question from a business perspective (what we will ever do without deli meat), but if food produced by your facility ends up causing harm or fatalities, the facility should rightfully be shut down, and top management should be held accountable.

...

 

Every time someone gets sick, put a few hundred people out of work? 

 

The sentiment might be laudable, but its entirely unrealistic.  We would all starve -- every food facility in the world would get shut down.  Even with a product that doesn't have chemistry that would support pathogens, we still get an "illness" claim or two for the millions of packages produced each week. 

[Mistborn42]

Every time someone gets sick, put a few hundred people out of work? 

 

I can see where you're coming from on this, seeing as you bolded everything but the "fatalities" portion of my statement, and I may have misspoken, but I still stand by harsh punishments when the product produced at a facility (under complete negligence of both the government and the facility itself) leads to fatalities.

 

The sentiment might be laudable, but its entirely unrealistic.  We would all starve -- every food facility in the world would get shut down.

 

[Seathalos]

Every time someone gets sick, put a few hundred people out of work? 

 

I agree, the regular workers shouldn't be caught in the crossfire of a failure of leadership. However we should still fine and penalize leadership for the harm that they allowed to happen to the citizens that used their product. Those who are the root cause for the problem (another good example is the cinnamon producer for the recent Applesauce recall) need to have some sort of recourse or they will continue to allow food safety to fall to the wayside after the dust settles. Making examples out of those that cause the harm and saying that we as a society will not stand for the harm they allow is the only way to stop it from happening. 

 

As Mistborn brought up the way China handles these types of problems caused by greedy corporations is an excellent example of how those in charge that allow for this type of harm should be handled.